Question about the use of fine wire ?

[NightWatchman]

Wanted to get the thoughts of the members here why fine wire was not used more often on the delicate bodies of many of the old traditional patterns. Was tying the “Old Master” for the first time today and was thinking of adding extra fine wire to the herl body as I felt the body would be too fragile for catching multiple fish.Any thoughts? Thanks.

[Fishnkilts]

Wanted to get the thoughts of the members here why fine wire was not used more often on the delicate bodies of many of the old traditional patterns. Was tying the “Old Master” for the first time today and was thinking of adding extra fine wire to the herl body as I felt the body would be too fragile for catching multiple fish.Any thoughts? Thanks.

That's a brilliant question and I too would like to know the answer.

I just started using extra fine wire to my flies, but I never had any thoughts on if fine wire would be too harsh on delicate bodies. I have used fine wire and even Brassie at times and have had no issues.

[joaniebo]

Wanted to get the thoughts of the members here why fine wire was not used more often on the delicate bodies of many of the old traditional patterns. Was tying the “Old Master” for the first time today and was thinking of adding extra fine wire to the herl body as I felt the body would be too fragile for catching multiple fish.Any thoughts? Thanks.

I just wrapped the body herl around the thread to add a little more strength.

Bob

[FlyFisherMann1955]

Excellent question. The 1st time I tied an Old Master, using Blue-eared pheasant as a heron herl sub, I thought this body will not survive contact with the 1st fish! Surely, extra fine silver wire would add durability without adding gaudiness. You would think fly durability would be important, especially for people who were fishing to eat, not fishing for fun.

Looking in the J Stockard Fly Fishing catalog, I see wire available in 4 sizes (x-small, small brassie, medium) and 18 different colors. Fifty years ago, when I started tying, I remember tinsel on small cards for 10 cents or wooden spools, but I don't remember x-small wire. Certainly there was wire; Sawyer used it in his 2-material Pheasant tail nymph. Perhaps the answer can be found in what was available to the tyers when these patterns were developed. They may have had more choices in natural materials (bird skins and fur), but less choices in other things.

Perhaps 1 of the board members rich in knowledge about tying history can provide some input. In the meantime, feel free to add some wire for durability to any of the classic patterns that seem fragile!

Tight Lines- Ken

[Updtate]

Perhaps some others can chime in on this question. Certainly a fine wire would make the fly more robust but was a fine gold or silver wire even available 150+ years ago. There were no fly tying material catalogues or shops available to the fisherman of the times, and what would be the purpose of an extremely fine wire back then as there was also no electric services available. Could even the fine wire dies necessary to manufacture the wire be produced?

Tom

[hankaye]

Upstate, Howdy;

Perhaps some others can chime in on this question. Certainly a fine wire would make the fly more robust but was a fine gold or silver wire even available 150+ years ago. There were no fly tying material catalogues or shops available to the fisherman of the times, and what would be the purpose of an extremely fine wire back then as there was also no electric services available. Could even the fine wire dies necessary to manufacture the wire be produced?

Tom

Did a quick Google and found this. They refer to threads but ...

https://theodora.com/encyclopedia/g2/go ... ver%20gilt.

hank

[wsbailey]

Aldam’s book was published in 1876.

https://books.google.com/books?id=19BAA ... wire&hl=en

[wsbailey]

Greenwell’s Glory originates from 1854 but the most well-known version is E M Tod’s 1903 pattern. That’s the one with added silk waxed with cobbler’s wax and fine gold wire. The first choice though was for unwound gimp.

https://books.google.com/books?id=AqUXA ... +glory&hl=

0C47669F-8522-4C4E-94DC-2C57CFA8FF28.jpeg (387.03 KiB) Viewed 3553 times

[Fishnkilts]

We have some great history going here. Thanks for showing all this.

[Greenwell]

Very fine metallic wires have been available for centuries and were used to decorate clothing and other fabric products, especially military garments, as were flat, round, oval, and embossed metallic tinsels. I think that their tendency to tarnish when exposed to air and water water may be one of the reasons that they were seldom used in trout flies. Larger salmon flies could actually be polished to bring back the shine of their tinsel bodies and ribbing. If you have ever looked at truly old flies, especially flies that were fished, it's rare to find the wire or tinsel in it's original state. When the practice of varnishing wire and tinsel to protect it from tarnishing became popular, it's use in fishing flies became much more common.


Checking my copy of Aldam, I find no examples of wire or tinsel, nor do I recall either being included in the materials. J. Herrington Kene's Fly-Fishing and Fly-Making ,1887,1891, 1898, also contains two pages of actual materials including samples of flat tinsels which in my copy have tarnished over time. In the Henry Walbran Cooper materials collection, which dates to before his death in 1913 and probably goes back much earlier, at least to 1880, there are envelopes of wires, some very fine, and also very fine flat tinsel. So we know that this Yorkshire fly dresser was using them, as evidenced by the tinsel tags on some of his patterns.
It's hard to tell from the photo, but this HWC spider circa 1880 is dressed with flat tinsel.

6.jpg (60.32 KiB) Viewed 3508 times

I'm sure there are many early references to wire and tinsel in fly dressing but I'm a bit too lazy to dig them up right now.

As an aside, some of the earlier patterns will call for gold or silver "twist". Twist is simply another term for decorative wire.