Stefan, I agree completely. We could list all the factors that are more important than hook color, most everything, but you do have to choose a hook, so what's it going to be? BTW, I think I would choose a hook based on wire gauge, gap size, shank length, eye direction, habit and personal taste over hook color. But it's still a valid question.daringduffer wrote:William, I enjoy your ramblings. I believe there are a lot of factors more important than the colour of the hook. When you get those factors right...well...if the fish won't take your fly it might be satiated. I agree with Jeff regarding how hook colour blends with body/silk.
I am able to scare the fish with hooks of any colour...
dd
Hook color
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William Anderson
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Re: Hook color
"A man should not try to eliminate his complexes, but rather come into accord with them. They are ultimately what directs his conduct in the world." Sigmund Freud.
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daringduffer
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Re: Hook color
I agree. I rarely let other factors than personal taste dictate my choice of hook...William Anderson wrote:... but you do have to choose a hook, so what's it going to be? ....personal taste...
I have said it several times before; I tie for myself - not for the fish. I know it's heretical among real fishermen but I don't care much about it. Most fishermen care about pleasing the fish. Since most of my fishing is done at home, my pleasure is more important than that of the fish.
I want to quote a wise man: "The difficulty is to dissociate the dead knowledge, which is reading or imitation, from the live knowledge, which is experience".
Whenever I come to a stream I am reminded of my dead knowledge, but even dead knowledge can be enjoyed...
dd
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daringduffer
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Re: Hook color
Who was the wise guy?
dd
dd
Re: Hook color
Hook color has been debated for a very long time indeed! I doubt that the argument will ever be settled to everyone's satisfaction.
Actually, a possible way to decide the efficacy of one color over another, at least for one's self, falls easily into the application of traditional wet fly tactics; we often use more than one fly on our leader. Simply tie a few flies of the same pattern and size on hooks of different colors and fish them together! To make the test as "scientific" as possible one would need to change the position of the flies on the leader at regular intervals. Keep a record of the number of fish to each hook color and there's your answer........
In 1931 Col. E. W. Harding wrote at length about hook color in "The Fly Fisher and the Trout's Point of View". He says: "Most anglers regard the hook as a horridly conspicuous necessity and wonder how the trout can tolerate it. Tank observations show that the hook is usually not nearly so conspicuous as they think it is, and fishing experience must be deemed to prove that, even if the trout notices the hook, it need not convey any cautionary meaning to him." Harding then went on to suggest that in some light conditions a nickel plated (silver) hook may be an advantage and that such hooks were available from the tackle company, Alexander Martin, under the name "Silverhooks". Harding was a contemporary and friend of Skues and a pioneer in the study of how trout see their world, including artificial flies both surface and subsurface. Indeed he paved the way for Marinaro and Goddard & Clarke. He ends his chapter on hook color with this quote, " So whether the hook is thought of as eluding the notice of the fish or as barely visible, the conclusion must be made that it is not usually a conspicuous object in the trout's landscape".
Skues offered a short chapter on hook visibility in "The Way of a Trout With a Fly". He sums up his views with the following: "The balance of probability, I think, leans to the theory that the trout is so obsessed by the pressure of appetite that he only sees what he wants to see -- his supposed insect prey -- and ignores the hook as an irrelevant detail, all of which goes to prove that the wily trout of the poets and journalists is -- may Providence be devoutly thanked for it -- really rather a stupid person."
My personal preference has always been for bronze trout hooks. In most cases the color harmonizes well with the dressing materials and the flies just look right to me, as good a reason as I can think of for using them. In the 1980's companies like Tiemco began to import fly hooks into the US and black trout hooks became available and quickly achieved a degree of popularity. (Salmon fly hooks have sported the traditional black "Japanned" finish for close to 200 years.) I have never found black hooks to give me a decided or measurable advantage, and in many cases the finish doesn't seem to be very durable. And I have always been puzzled, and a little amused, to see light colored artificials, wet or dry, such as PMDs, dressed on black hooks. The color of the hook shows through when the fly is wet or when is floatant is applied, spoiling the effect of the light colored materials and darkening the fly's aspect.
But in the end it is best to use whatever hook looks best your eye and suits your style, Harding and Skues would both approve, and I doubt the trout really care!
(While not germane to the topic at hand, and a huge subject to broach, hook BRANDS and STYLES are something I REALLY have some opinions on! Maybe another time....)
Actually, a possible way to decide the efficacy of one color over another, at least for one's self, falls easily into the application of traditional wet fly tactics; we often use more than one fly on our leader. Simply tie a few flies of the same pattern and size on hooks of different colors and fish them together! To make the test as "scientific" as possible one would need to change the position of the flies on the leader at regular intervals. Keep a record of the number of fish to each hook color and there's your answer........
In 1931 Col. E. W. Harding wrote at length about hook color in "The Fly Fisher and the Trout's Point of View". He says: "Most anglers regard the hook as a horridly conspicuous necessity and wonder how the trout can tolerate it. Tank observations show that the hook is usually not nearly so conspicuous as they think it is, and fishing experience must be deemed to prove that, even if the trout notices the hook, it need not convey any cautionary meaning to him." Harding then went on to suggest that in some light conditions a nickel plated (silver) hook may be an advantage and that such hooks were available from the tackle company, Alexander Martin, under the name "Silverhooks". Harding was a contemporary and friend of Skues and a pioneer in the study of how trout see their world, including artificial flies both surface and subsurface. Indeed he paved the way for Marinaro and Goddard & Clarke. He ends his chapter on hook color with this quote, " So whether the hook is thought of as eluding the notice of the fish or as barely visible, the conclusion must be made that it is not usually a conspicuous object in the trout's landscape".
Skues offered a short chapter on hook visibility in "The Way of a Trout With a Fly". He sums up his views with the following: "The balance of probability, I think, leans to the theory that the trout is so obsessed by the pressure of appetite that he only sees what he wants to see -- his supposed insect prey -- and ignores the hook as an irrelevant detail, all of which goes to prove that the wily trout of the poets and journalists is -- may Providence be devoutly thanked for it -- really rather a stupid person."
My personal preference has always been for bronze trout hooks. In most cases the color harmonizes well with the dressing materials and the flies just look right to me, as good a reason as I can think of for using them. In the 1980's companies like Tiemco began to import fly hooks into the US and black trout hooks became available and quickly achieved a degree of popularity. (Salmon fly hooks have sported the traditional black "Japanned" finish for close to 200 years.) I have never found black hooks to give me a decided or measurable advantage, and in many cases the finish doesn't seem to be very durable. And I have always been puzzled, and a little amused, to see light colored artificials, wet or dry, such as PMDs, dressed on black hooks. The color of the hook shows through when the fly is wet or when is floatant is applied, spoiling the effect of the light colored materials and darkening the fly's aspect.
But in the end it is best to use whatever hook looks best your eye and suits your style, Harding and Skues would both approve, and I doubt the trout really care!
(While not germane to the topic at hand, and a huge subject to broach, hook BRANDS and STYLES are something I REALLY have some opinions on! Maybe another time....)
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daringduffer
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Re: Hook color
Yes, please. I know that both Kelly and I would enjoy that...(While not germane to the topic at hand, and a huge subject to broach, hook BRANDS and STYLES are something I REALLY have some opinions on! Maybe another time....)
dd
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daringduffer
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Re: Hook color
Since I had no takers, I have to reveal him myself. The quote comes from the first chapter in "MINOR TACTICS OF THE CHALK STREAM AND KINDRED STUDIES by G: E: M: SKUES (Seaforth and Soforth).daringduffer wrote:Who was the wise guy?
dd
I have often thought about just what he is speaking of in that above sentence, mostly regarding myself. I know of a lot of things and 'facts', but I lack severely in practical experience, hence I cannot claim real knowledge. I realize and accept this for a fact, but when I am speaking of what I know, people might mistake what I say for knowledge. This is a disclaimer; please don't make that mistake.
dd
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hankaye
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Re: Hook color
dd, Howdy;
Very deep thoughts and very sound advise and sort of a 'Humble check' as well.
I have only just downloaded the text of the Skues book yesterday and
have yet to read any of it. It's free ...
http://archive.org/details/wayoftroutwithfl00skuerich
hank
PS. I prefer the PDF doc. style as I can transfer it to my e-reader,
even if it is only B&W and I loose the details in the photos. I keep a copy on
the computer as well for the color stuff.
Very deep thoughts and very sound advise and sort of a 'Humble check' as well.
I have only just downloaded the text of the Skues book yesterday and
have yet to read any of it. It's free ...
http://archive.org/details/wayoftroutwithfl00skuerich
hank
PS. I prefer the PDF doc. style as I can transfer it to my e-reader,
even if it is only B&W and I loose the details in the photos. I keep a copy on
the computer as well for the color stuff.
Last edited by hankaye on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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William Anderson
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Re: Hook color
Stefan, your input here always raises the level of discourse by several notches. However your define knowledge. I understand what you're saying, but it's not quite that clean. Anytime you can distill something important into a simple statement, you lose much.daringduffer wrote:
I have often thought about just what he is speaking of in that above sentence, mostly regarding myself. I know of a lot of things and 'facts', but I lack severely in practical experience, hence I cannot claim real knowledge. I realize and accept this for a fact, but when I am speaking of what I know, people might mistake what I say for knowledge. This is a disclaimer; please don't make that mistake.
dd
"A man should not try to eliminate his complexes, but rather come into accord with them. They are ultimately what directs his conduct in the world." Sigmund Freud.
www.WilliamsFavorite.com
www.WilliamsFavorite.com
Re: Hook color
I have no idea what colors of hooks fish see, or not. I enjoyed the thread immensely. I do have a few black hooks. (as you might of guessed) lol.... I have not fished with them enough, to form an opinion. I have used all other colors though. I think different waters effect fish as well. One color may work for some lakes or rivers, but not in others. I have noticed some lakes in particular, the fish like BLUE flies. Some other lakes will not touch a blue fly. My favorite spot to fish, they like chartreuse, yellow, and white. So I would not be surprised if certain hook colors would fall into that category. I have about every color of fly under the sun. I also have seen fish take one color over another. Then in a few minutes, reject that color, and hit on another color. They are fickle creatures at times.
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daringduffer
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Re: Hook color
Hank,
I just love to hold the books in my hands ; knowing that a lot of people have done it before me. A book is much easier for me to navigate. Some books are only available on the net and I find them cumbersome to read. I realize the practicality of digital books in a RV, but...
William,
Yes and no. I often find that the simple statement provokes people to think for themselves and fill out what is missing. In the best of worlds, this moves the discussion forward. I read your reply that way...
dd
I just love to hold the books in my hands ; knowing that a lot of people have done it before me. A book is much easier for me to navigate. Some books are only available on the net and I find them cumbersome to read. I realize the practicality of digital books in a RV, but...
William,
Yes and no. I often find that the simple statement provokes people to think for themselves and fill out what is missing. In the best of worlds, this moves the discussion forward. I read your reply that way...
dd