Fishing Wingless Wets, Without Felt ....

[John L]

Hank, I could guess why one might want studs around the sole periphery and not at the ball-of-foot area, but why guess? I'm hoping for advice from those who KNOW what works best because they have tried everything and don't have to guess. If I don't get that kind of advice eventually I'll probably try sheet metal screws in various patterns one boot at a time.

[John L]

With sheet metal screw studded boots I caught five fish in short order this morning on my town's stretch of the Arkansas River ... self imposed limit. Then with nothing else to do I looked on YouTube for stud placement information. Here is a video that I can't exactly recommend unless you have ten minutes to kill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkjw_U2WaNA .The guy isn't Bruce Willis and he didn't give his final preference re five vs eight studs. Oh, well. Several videos I found semed to show a preference for peripheral stud placement.

I also found an infomercial that recommended either ten or fourteen studs. Well, they sell studs. But it also had a part that gave some rational for stud placement and stud height: http://www.waderstuds.com/placement_patterns.php .

Probably inspired by not fishing to exhaustion, I also emailed Lance Egan, primo member of Fly Fishing Team USA since at least 2009, asking if he or the team are settled on best studs and placement. I already know he uses Simms rubber soled boots. We shouldn't blame him if he doesn't respond right away.

John

[michaelgmcgraw]

So far the streams I fish here in central N.Y State haven't had any rock snot problems. I bought a pair of Chota wading shoe's 2yrs ago they are felt soled with plenty of hex head studs. I will stay with them as long as can.

[DOUGSDEN]

Fellows,
I have seen Lance's wading staff made from a bamboo ski pole up-close and personal! It's fantastic! What is really cool is the way the cord is designed and tied on. One way, it slips over his head and across his chest when you want it out of the way. The other way, the knot slips downward and tightens toward the staff itself when wading. Very ingenious indeed! In Roscoe, I was surrounded by very intelligent, crafty, and ingenious peoples and it is so on this forum as well! It's nice to be around folks like you! All this greatness is bound to rub off on a fellow like me!
Soakin' it up like a sponge,
Dougsden

[John L]

Best review I found so far though 2009: http://www.troutpredator.com/community/thread2773.html The reviewer thinks no rubber yet equals felt's grip on slimiest rocks, and thinks Simms' change from Aquastealth rubber to Vibram was a step back. I met a guide last week who said exactly that about Simms, and in this long interview with Lance Egan, http://troutlegend.com/player/behind-th ... ance-egan/ Egan says the same.

My wife's Patagonia boots that I earlier mentioned had terrible grip, are Riverwalkers from 2010, when they advertised "sticky rubber", whereas later Rock Grips are advertised with Aquastealth. My LLBean Emerger boots have Aquastealth, and I thought they needed studs to be at all safe, though they have a different tread pattern than Patagonia Rock Grips.

The new owner of my local fly shop, whose stock was entirely Simms, says the new Patagonia boots with five aluminum bars are the nicest, stickiest boots he's ever used. A Patagonia alum bar boot review: http://westernriversflyfisher.wordpress.com/2012/01/

Regarding screw stud patterns, the newest Simms boots I looked at had spots intended to receive studs all over the place, so they are leaving it to you to pick a pattern. Patagonia, to the contrary, has just eleven spots intended for studs on their 2011-12 Rock Grip boots, all on the periphery and none under the ball of the foot.
Note Patagonia's aluminum bar version has no bar in the arch area.

How many studs? Very few for me. Five where you see them in the left boot helps tremendously.
Note, my screws are now screwed into the depressions of the sole and not on the tread high points as at first. Much better feel and maybe better grip, too. After about ten hours of challenging wading I decided those five were as good or better than five under the forefoot plus four under the heel. In the right boot you see maybe my last try - seven in a slightly different distribution.
No #8, 5/8ths " sheetmetal screws have fallen out yet after 20 plus hours of wading.

[John L]

Two observations since the above post was in June and now it is mid October. Shortly after the above post I tried a slightly different pattern than seemed the best by a little and good enough that I have not tried anything else.

Second, to my amazement I realize that a 5/8" hex head sheet metal screw stud has never fallen out, though I wade fished three hour sessions several times every week. Thus I can recommend these screws to anyone who wants to try studs on the cheap. I cannot recommend smaller size screws, though. Smaller sizes are not only shorter in the screw part but also thinner. 1/2" is a size I tried first and one or more fell out almost every session. If 5/8" is too long for your sole thickness, you can put a screw in then back it out and grind off the point. It is working for me.

I am thinking that when these boots wear out I will go back to felt soles if they are still legal here, and add studs. The grip of rubber seems too inferior to felt and I cannot see how organisms are more likely to be transmitted on felt than on laces or any of the many feature on waders or boots that are not slick smooth, including under Patagonia's aluminum bars. If this is bad thinking, please let me know.

Good wading
John L

[tie2fish]

I have learned to adapt to wearing the supposedly "sticky" rubber soles with carbide studs, but when I first used them after years of felt w/carbide spikes, I slid around something terrible. They can say what they want to, but the new synthetic soles are no match for felt with pointed carbide spikes on rocks.

[DUBBN]

Great post John. I am going to keep your info in mind when I purchase my next pair of boots.

[John L]

I went to the hardware store today to get a new set of screws to replace the old set which was getting rounded off. That is when I realized I gave wrong information about the designation of the screws that are holding in well; they are #12 by 5/8" (12X5/8) not #8 as I posted first. I am not sure how I got that so wrong. Now I also know the 1/2" screws that fell out easily would not have had to be thinner in the screw part, but were thinner because they were #10s.

Sorry John L

[William Anderson]

John, I really appreciate the time and thoroughness you've put into this issue and helping all of us stay safer on the water. I bought a new pair of simms early this year and posted about busting my butt the first time out. I took a couple pics of my placement and should get the specs on the star shaped carbide encrusted studs that I bought with the boots and the configuration, but for what I've experienced this season (not as many outings as I would like) I'm really happy with the boots and the studs. To be honest, I fished a lot of rock snot this season and besides that first could outings, I really forgot it was even a concern. I haven't had a slip or spill that I would attribute to the boots or the configuration. I haven't given the rubber sole over felt topic a thought. I know that doesn't further your discussion. No evidence is a kind of evidence in itself I suppose. If anything...the expensive cleats shown here are worth every penny. I wouldn't consider switching these cleats or their placement from this seasons wading.





I will continue to follow this thread as the experiments unfold. I initially bought two packs of the screws you describe and tossed them in a bag with a screwdriver for a streamside adjustment, but they are now in the nether regions of the bag. Good luck finding the right combination for you.

w