Fly colours

[Mike Connor]

Thank you, Mike.

I have another question; do you believe that there is any difference in the importance of colour and degree of translucence to trout (positioned close to surface) and grayling (close to the bottom)?

dd

Not really, grayling are actually primarily bottom feeders ,( underslung mouth), and doubtless take most of their food there, they only occasionally rise to flies. Where both fish rise to take something, the translucence is equally important as they both see the flies from below and against the light. Grayling seem to be a lot more capricious than trout in relation to "fancy" flies, and will often take all sorts of things. Trout less so.

"Rise" here is intended to indicate rising to something above them, not necessarily on the surface.
TL
MC

[daringduffer]

The reason for my question is a dry fly pattern that has had great success for a lot of fishermen (mostly for grayling). Most of the fly is solid/opaque as can be seen here. I met the creator of the fly last september when he had caught his largest grayling on it. It was a cock fish of 63 cm which was extracted from considerable depth. I am just trying to fit this result into this discussion.

dd

[Mike Connor]

Grayling do like stuff dragged along the bottom, and it is probably irrelevant in most such cases whether that is translucent or not. I have had grayling on bottom patterns,so stuffed full of cased caddis that they "crunched".

In the case of dries, as I wrote, they are often capricious and will take all sorts of stuff. What did he design it to represent? How does that behave? It looks like some sort of pupa imitation. What does it look like viewed against the light? Not all prey items are translucent, and those that are, not in all circumstances.

Not all results fit into patterns, sometimes things work and you don't know why. There probably are reasons in many cases but you may not discover what they are. The main "trick" is to find things that work consistently and it is easier to do this based on known facts. There are a lot of unknowns as well.

Finding a pattern ( of results) does not automatically mean that other things will conform to it, and finding one important factor does not necessarily mean it will always apply or always work.

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

Up to thirty...twenty five years ago, even twenty to some extent, I was always avid to try the latest patterns and tactics, always bought the newest books and magazines with the new patterns and materials, tried lots of things, but this actually resulted in my catching fewer fish and finding it harder to do.

I use the approach I now use because I find it a lot simpler and a lot more effective. There are occasions when any fly chosen at random from a large bin full will catch a fish, or even a few fish. I have no problem at all with that. Where I have the problems is that I have absolutely no idea when those occasions might be, or how to take advantage of them should they arise. There is nothing to go on.

The flies I dress and use are all dressed based on specific reasons and often for specific tactics. Without those reasons a fly is useless to me because I simply don't know what to do with it. I have no reason to choose a random fly over any other, and I have no idea how to fish it even if I do finally manage to choose one.

There are doubtless very many flies that work very well that I don't use because I don't know when or how. That's all there is to it. I am not trying to be "exclusive" or "elitist" or anything like that, I do it this way because it is easier and works very well for me.

This is another reason I very rarely use other people's flies. I have no rationale for them. They might be brilliant for the person who made them but they are largely useless to me because I don't know anything about them. I also reject many patterns for other reasons. they use a material I don't like, and other things.

TL
MC

[daringduffer]

What did he design it to represent? How does that behave? It looks like some sort of pupa imitation. What does it look like viewed against the light? Not all prey items are translucent, and those that are, not in all circumstances.

Yes, it's a pupa imitation; foam, dubbed thorax, partridge hackle. Should have said it was a size 16. Difficult to see that in the picture. I guess the explanation is to be found in something you wrote in your first post:

These are cases where the reason is apparent even to human eyes and perception, once it is known. Until it is known, it may simply not be apparent.

dd

[daringduffer]

Mike, Otter, what colour thread do you use for these patterns? Silk or synthetics? With translucency in mind silk might be preferred - not?

For duns a Greenwell's Glory but with waterhen fibres for the wing(s) and a small thorax of hare fur.

Like this one?

For drowned duns a Waterhen Bloa.

I would stick with a Waterhen Bloa if I thought there were a lot of spinners around.

Waterhen Bloa for drowned duns/spinners. What colour yellow silk; number 3, 4 or 5 of the Pearsall's shades (not neccessarily being that silk)?

dd

Any bright yellow silk will do, primrose or more or less any shade of bright yellow it doesn't really matter much,(the brighter the yellow the more olive it turns),waxed with clear wax ( either beeswax or tying wax, both work). The wax turns the silk a translucent olive. If you want to "shape" a body ( good on some large nymphs), then use some bright yellow floss silk and wax it, you can form this to whatever taper you want. You have to do this carefully, pulling the floss against the wax in one directions only,or it will shred the floss. Just about any wax will work but of course will give different shades of olive. It doesn't seem to matter much to the fish as long as the body appears translucent, although coloured waxes will of course affect the colour.

TL
MC

Do you ever use a hackle on this imitation (for LDO)?

dd

[Mike Connor]

Grayling sometimes do go a bit crazy for green stuff. I have no idea why. I have caught quite a few with fair amounts of darkish green and also light green yellow weed in them. I do actually use a couple of flies based on this.

I certainly don't know all the reasons for all these things. Some of my flies and tactics are indeed extremely effective, and these are based on the reasons discussed here, so as far as I am concerned it is safe to say that the reasons appear to be accurate, but there is no way to be absolute about any of this. These are theories, some of which have proved themselves in practice for me and for some others. I tend to be very pragmatic indeed and also extremely critical.

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

MC[/quote]

Do you ever use a hackle on this imitation (for LDO)?

dd[/quote]

No, not anymore. I used to use a light furnace hackle ( Greenwell) on some of these flies but the flies without it catch better in the circumstances in which I now most often use them with the tactics I use. * These are not the only tactics I might use in a Large Dark Olive hatch. It depends on a lot of things, what gear I am using, what water I am fishing, general conditions, etc etc. I don't limit myself to things to the extent that I only use one set or type of flies or tactics. I mentioned those because they happen to be one of the most successful ones I use. Sometimes I use flies or tactics just to see if they work, or because I want to use certain gear, I do not constantly strive to use the absolute optimum all the time, but I do try to optimise what I use.

* I discovered this because I caught more and better fish after the hackle was torn off the flies I was using. When I dressed a few without the hackle they caught better to begin with.

TL
MC

[Mike Connor]

Something else I am more or less obliged to point out here, as it explains some other things. For a long time now it has not been unusual at all for me to catch over a hundred fish in a day's fishing, and that several times a week, sometimes more often, using various flies and tactics. This means that my personal "statistical samples", for want of a better expression, are far more extensive than for somebody who goes fishing once a month and is happy if he catches a couple of sizeable fish.

This affects my whole approach, and the flies, tactics and gear I use. I use lots of different gear and different flies, but all based on the same general principles of logical choice and design. This may well not suit a lot of people, and many will simply not have the opportunity to do it at all.

TL
MC

[Otter]

Boasting again Mike - I'm joking off course.

You are of course correct, if you only get out infrequently then progress will be slow and lessons learned per season will be few. Okay, I have fly fished for nearly 28 years but only 7 or eight of those are river fishing for browns, previous twenty was almost exclusively Salmon and Sea Trout. I can honestly say that the first four seasons hunting brownies I was a headless chicken, not a clue. Hard work, reading, arguing on forums, finding decent local anglers - indeed anything that would extract useful information. If at times I appear a little argumentative on this forum, on topics such as this it is down to an unerring desire to learn beyond the dummies guide to fly fishing.

In all these discussions, it is amazing what one can learn - what one person may consider a simple concept for others it can be difficult to grasp - such is the way of life.

The complexity that is imitative fly fishing is compounded by little time to learn. If we take LDO's of spring, though lessons can be learned through other olive hatches, in any one season one is limited to really a few weeks to attempt to master the LDO's. Now if one can only get out two or three times in that period then one is at an immediate disadvantage.

Little snippets of knowledge , such as emergers are not the best approach for LDO's or that trout often prefer taking Iron Blues just subsurface ... these are invaluable gems of information to those with meagre time on the water. If anyone has other such info on other common hatches please free to share it

The old axiom always applies, if you believe someone has knowledge that may benefit you, like a challenging trout, you have to cast various flies until you ask the right question to get the right answer , but cast carefully, people can be put down as quick as any trout and always remember to say thanks.