Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

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Old Hat
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by Old Hat » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:07 pm

When I look at my box on the stream my selection is solely on experience. I don't know why some flies work and some don't. I can only go off experience from time on the water in that section of water, during that time of year. Yes, I look at what is hatching, ask if there is fish rising, take a water temperature all before I wet a line. Does this determine what I fish with?, most often not. Most often I select what worked for me before at this place. Although my box is full of selections of flies for just about every hatch I may encounter, every size, color, shape...90% of the time I'm fishing with a very small selection, safe to say less than a dozen. Now this is on my home water. When I travel it is a different story, and a bit of a crap shoot. I become more analytical, ask locals, and pay more attention to the activity on the water. I hedge my bets in hopes of increasing my chances.

I have a fly for my favorite river to trout fish. This is a softy, tied traditional flymph style, no tail. Hackle is olive partridge. Body is a claret with a bright orange wire rib. Size #14. Doesn't look like any insect on the stream. but this fly will consistently out fish any other fly in my box, on my river, Spring-Fall. I don't know why and it's not just me, having given the pattern to a few close friends, it works extremely well for them. It works only on this river though. To catch fish, that is the fly I grab out of my box, due to experience.

Now to the discussion of body and hook size. I am of the belief, from my experience ;) that i do better in catching fish by over sizing the hook to the pattern. I like to tie size #16 on #14 hooks. I believe the smaller the pattern the more important this is. I will tie a #20 pattern on a #16 hook. Here is my train of thought. Pertaining to this discussion and "catching" fish. My tendency to tie on a larger hook is not about what the fish is seeing, what I'm imitating, the action of the fly an so on, it is solely on the hooking of the fish. I have caught fish on #20 and smaller hooks. Big fish. I have missed many more than I have caught. I believe I catch more fish by using a larger hook. I believe is is easier to hook a fish with a #12, #14, #16 hook than with a #18, #20, #22. It is more distinguishable the smaller the hook size. For the most part, it works the other way as well. You can use a too big a hook for your quarry, but it is far harder to tie a #8 pattern on a #12 hook. :) As an addition, today there are a lot of hook choices out there. I see many companies offering wide gape hooks now, even on smaller size styles. This wasn't the case a few years back, at least in my fishing circle. I have started to play with sizing the hook to the fly pattern on a couple of the short wide gape styles. One being the Tiemco 111 hook.

On fish taking bare hooks and related to my tendency to tie a smaller pattern on a larger hook. I have spent a lot of time, snorkeling water and counting fish. When I was working, I did contract fishery survey work for the US Forest Service. Fish in a lie, whether a feeding lie, holding lie, shelter lie or just cruising in stillwater are constantly pulling items into their mouths. Sometimes spitting them out, sometime chewing them and then spitting them out. There appears no rhyme or reason to what they pull into their mouths. I heard someone associate this with people walking down a trail and kicking stones or pulling a blade of grass and putting it in our mouths. I have no doubt that I have caught fish for no other reason than a fish kicking stones. It had nothing to do with my presentation, fly size, pattern sillouette, color etc. It had everything to do with my hook getting imbedded in the fish's mouth when they tried to spit it out. I believe again, that the larger hook, within reason, will hook more fish than the smaller hook. A #20 is easier to spit out without being hooked than say a #16. Whether the fish is kicking rocks or just realizing that what he has eaten as a BWO is actually a hardened hook with fur and feathers.

Carl
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by Old Hat » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:22 am

Someone post another reply please. I'm beginning to feel like killer of a great thread. :cry:
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by William Anderson » Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:05 am

I'll just chime in to say that is a really nicely composed post. You've exceeded my experience on this subject by a lot of years, but then at your age...I bet you hear that a lot. You're well over the hill. (smiley).

w
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by Otter » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:56 am

Young Hat, A well thought out post.

On your point of wide gape hooks.
I have tended to use a lot of medium/strong wire wide gape short shank hooks for many years - I believe that they make a huge difference. I now look at a standard size 14 and I think it is an enormous hook. Funnily, a size 12 wide gape short shank looks all wrong , 14's up look okay to my eyes - which shows really how we often judge things on what we see from our human perspective.

There may be some element of truth when you talk about it being easier for a trout to spit out a size 20 but may there also be an element of truth in that the trout is more likely to spit out the size 16 ?
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by daringduffer » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:01 am

Regarding what fish see, I remember a few fishing experiences during my formative years before getting "educated". One day, when choosing a fly from my box, i didn't think of what was the right one for the circumstances but picked the one I wanted to try. The fish were eating Baetis Rhodani (I was ignorant about that) and I picked one of my fresh Elk Hair Caddis. This was tied with olive fur dubbing and bleached wing. No hackle (in those days I had trouble managing hackling procedure). Caddis had not started hatching yet, season being too early for that.

I had a day of overwhelmingly good fishing. The other fisherman struggled to catch on their mayfly imitations. One of them dispatched one of my fish to check what it had been taking. It was full of mayfly nymphs and emergers. I was told I was using the wrong fly for the hatch.

I never hackle my EHC to this day. It was a revelation to me when Bob Wyatt started writing about what he called the trout's "prey image". If it looks like food, to most fish it is food. At least if it behaves naturally and is within easy reach. I don't really know what this says about long versus short body or big vs small hook but I'm not surprised by these old hat experiences. It must be easier to take it in and spit it out than to have to make a deliberate decision for every item moving in the stream. This reasoning doesn't exclude deliberate choice but explains how duffers can catch fish.

dd

Old Hat,

When counting fish - did you take notice of the orientation of the insects in the stream? Were they tumbeling around, or did they have control of what was up and what was down. I mean, dorsal side up and ventral side down. In another thread someone pointed out that flymphs/ soft hackles are tied "in the round". Other flies - especially modern nymph and pupa patterns - are often tied with ventral and dorsal side. Usually the hook point is on the ventral side. I believe that many of these patterns fish upside down. Yet many of them catch fish. What does that say?
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by CreationBear » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:46 am

dd wrote:
When counting fish - did you take notice of the orientation of the insects in the stream? Were they tumbeling around, or did they have control of what was up and what was down. I mean, dorsal side up and ventral side down
I'll be interested in your observations as well: I came across a thread on the "troutnut.com" forum where a gentleman was claiming that in heavy current, nymphs actually go rigid. A correlation of this was that his "wiggle-nymphs" worked better in slack water, while traditional ties on a rigid hookshank produced better in pushy water. (I hate it when the casual suppositions I make are contradicted by people who actually--you know--know stuff. :lol: )
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by Old Hat » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:54 am

Thanks for revitalizing the thread. I feel better now. :D
I like the look and feel of the short wide gape hooks, anxious to see how they work on the small patterns this year.

I wasn't paying real close attention in those days to the insects but did make a few observations. In current, most insects just drifted still to my eyes with a couple exceptions, some large stoneflies kicked around a bit but were very rarely ever seen in the drift. In current though your pretty limited to what you can really see as far as something that small. In slower current, maybe just a factor of when I could see them, any cased caddie were almost always floating case up and appeared to be reaching for the bottom. In pools, I could see insects, mostly caddie and mayflies with some what controlled swimming to the surface. Rarely did they just swim straight to the surface though. Most often it was a swim up some fall back a bit, swim up some fall back a bit.
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by redietz » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:04 pm

CreationBear wrote:I hate it when the casual suppositions I make are contradicted by people who actually--you know--know stuff.

I personally try to never let facts get in the way of any of my pet theories.
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by Otter » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:09 am

redietz wrote:
CreationBear wrote:I hate it when the casual suppositions I make are contradicted by people who actually--you know--know stuff.

I personally try to never let facts get in the way of any of my pet theories.
:D that would make you a fool or a genius or a bit of both, not that it matters.
Having pet theories is good fun and testing them is often what makes a day on the river even more enjoyable.
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Re: Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

Post by daringduffer » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:44 am

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