Sparse Dressing on large hooks discussion

[daringduffer]

I'm no expert on what causes trout to eat or reject different fly designs, but I have seen a couple of underwater videos that suggest that they (trout) take a significant number of debris bits into their mouths and then reject them in the course of a day. The frequency with which this happens appears to be related to the velocity and clarity of the water in which they are holding. If a trout cannot, for any reason, distinguish between debris and real food without mouthing it, is it realistic for us to speculate about whether their decision to eat a fly or not is based on the size ratio between a hook and the materials that are fastened to it? Just sayin ...

I suppose they only take debris that moves in a natural - non-alarming - manner. If a fly is dressed in a way that allows it to behave naturally within the moving water the fish is less likely to be "put off". A fly can look natural to us, in the vise or in a glass of water, but have negative triggers when in action. Could this be included in a hypothesis trying to explain differences if they exist?

dd

[NJpatbee]

I tend to tie my soft-hackles in a more traditional proportion because I see no advantage in "short-tying" since I ususally do not go below size 18. The problem I have is gently and quickly releasing a trout on an exceptionall small hook (<22), so when I tie spinners for a hatch like the Tricos or really small soft-hackles, I use a size 20 hook, but the body size may go down to a size 26 imitation. The trout don't seem to mind.

[Soft-hackle]

Hi All,
I did not want to jump in on this one till some responses were posted. First, I have never really tested if there WAS a difference in preference in long or short tied bodies. The reason for this is because I do not believe this variation makes any difference in the fish take. The underlying reason is because the fish simply seem to ignore the hook anyway. It really makes no difference how long or short the body is, especially if one fishes the fly in a manner that fish are looking for. If one ties smaller, all the way around, including body, hackle, wings, tied in proportion to one another, it may make a difference. In other words, tie a smaller fly on a larger hook. I've done this, and it seems to work better when trout are keyed in to smaller sized flies.(Ignoring the hook)

However, with that said, one can not argue with success.

http://www.danica.com/flytier/rchristie ... s_mask.htm
Supposedly, this fly worked better for Roy to particularly finicky trout in a stream he fishes. The simplicity and less is more approach often seems to be more successful, at times.

Our fishing success is based a lot upon how the trout perceive our offerings. If the fly is fished correctly and looks like something that seems like food-from the trout's viewpoint-BINGO! we catch a fish. If not, we get a refusal. It's that simple. Again, we often over-think things and credit the fish with way too much of our own intelligence. In addition, our own confidence in a fly. I'm sure, often plays a key role in our fishing success, however that boils down to-doing everything correctly, as the trout want it.

Lots of conjecture!
Mark

[redietz]

1. The trout disregards the hook and looks at the dressed body.
2. The trout includes the hook as part of the whole package and isn't put off by it.
3. The trout includes the hook as part of the whole package and is put off by it.

There's a fourth possibility, and that's "all of the above" -- at one time or another, that is.

I've caught the occasional fish on a bare hook, so that 1 can't always be true, nor 3. In fact if 3 were always, true, we would have a significantly lower catch rate.

[scotfly]

I've quietly watched this thread with some interest, mainly because I was curious as to where it would go. When I tied and posted the three styles of flies it was because I like tying them and love the simplistic beauty of them. Generally when tying for fishing I tie traditional Scottish/ North Country style.
I used to tie the various styles for fishing, but that was because I'm old enough to have been around when fine lead wire, good quality hackles and good quality irons (hooks) were virtually unknown. Whilst I'm a very long way from being an expert (self-proclaimed or otherwise ) I do have some experience. That experience has given me the confidence to fish "short-dressed" flies secure in the knowledge (in my mind at least) that if I don't catch, it's not the flies, it's my fault, most likely due to poor or improper presentation. I firmly believe that, within reason, the hook makes no difference to the fish. That word, "confidence," that I used in the last sentence is very important. If you have confidence in your fly/self, you will catch fish.

[michaelgmcgraw]

Scotfly,
Amen Brother !

[Otter]

I've quietly watched this thread with some interest, mainly because I was curious as to where it would go. When I tied and posted the three styles of flies it was because I like tying them and love the simplistic beauty of them. Generally when tying for fishing I tie traditional Scottish/ North Country style.
I used to tie the various styles for fishing, but that was because I'm old enough to have been around when fine lead wire, good quality hackles and good quality irons (hooks) were virtually unknown. Whilst I'm a very long way from being an expert (self-proclaimed or otherwise ) I do have some experience. That experience has given me the confidence to fish "short-dressed" flies secure in the knowledge (in my mind at least) that if I don't catch, it's not the flies, it's my fault, most likely due to poor or improper presentation. I firmly believe that, within reason, the hook makes no difference to the fish. That word, "confidence," that I used in the last sentence is very important. If you have confidence in your fly/self, you will catch fish.

Thanks Scotfly

Thats part of my reason for raising this discussion, should I have equal confidence in very short dressings on larger hooks as against hooks more appropiate to the size of the insect.

I appreciate fully that for small stuff it is not so difficult to use bigger hooks than necessary in balancing between attraction and actually hooking power. I have no problem with that leap of faith, I have done so and it has worked on some small dries but I also know that dropping back from a 22 to an 18/20 led in many cases to fewer offers. But with increased actual hookups I accepted the situation and considered it an acceptable balance and worked harder on better presentation and stealth.

I don't fully buy into the confidence aspect as you posted and I'm probably only splitting hairs
If you have little confidence in your fly then you are unlikely to fish it right and the results are likely in general to be poor.
If you have confidence in your fly then you will fish well and may well catch fish. If you have confidence in your fly and the fly is close to what the fish wan't then I believe that it is very likely that your ability to catch will increase greatly.

[Otter]

One point that strikes me in some of the discussion here and other discussions I have seen is a conclusion that some anglers seem to reach which MAY not be correct.

It is always mentioned in such discussion’s that trout have been caught on bare hooks, or hooks with a minimal dressing of wire and a touch of fur. And from that a conclusion is often reached that the trout see what they want to see. As we all know any fly fished the right way will invariably catch some trout, but surely we all strive to go a step further and maximise our chances by fishing an effective appropriate pattern in the right way.

Is it sensible to conclude that the hook is not part of the fly from a trout’s perspective in some, if not all situations ? , the consideration of that immense question is in my view the crux of the matter.

Would it not be more sensible to ASSUME that the hook is an integral part of the dressing and dress your flies so that any POSSIBLE negative impact of the hook is where possible minimised. It seems more sensible to me to conclude that if a pattern tied short on a size 14 works equally well as the same pattern tied standard length on same size 14 that the hook is part of what the trout accepts as food – and by the same token tying a small pattern on oversized hooks is only sensible when trying to achieve a balance between attraction and hooking power. Getting the fly down deeper can be achieved with a little lead or using finer tippets, finer tippets were not really an option for our forefathers.

The key to all of this I believe is to try and achieve the best balance to suit various situations. I appreciate that as in all of these things, sometimes it matters and other times it may not not matter.

Off course none of this cannot be proved one way or another and it may seem a minor thing. If I have learned one thing over the last few years it is that by addressing and attempting to understand all these minor details that they do all add up to making a significant impact on my overall fishing. Thinking about or trying to understand these things is not everybody’s cup of tea, and even if ones conclusions are not 100% correct you will have learned in the process.

[William Anderson]

Maybe this thought needs to be deliberated a bit further, but with the assumptions your making above, it makes sense to me that unless a fly tied with a short body clearly outfishes a fly tied with a body the length of the natural being imitated, than it would never be to your advantage to tie the body short...assuming you can get the fly down quick enough, and deep enough. Is that where you're going? If fishing a fly with confidence is a major factor, knowing you have your best chance with a fly tied with the longer body would be your preference. I know this is way oversimplified, but I'm trying to follow. Believing that a fly tied short fishes just as well as a fly tied full length is not an advantage, it is not an improvement.

(Just asking. I like this discussion. CB, I'm taking your insights into account, but suspended for the moment. It makes playing devil's advocate a little clearer.)

w

[Otter]

Believing that a fly tied short fishes just as well as a fly tied full length is not an advantage, it is not an improvement.

w

Great line

Can't really take my surmising any further, time on the water is required.