A very disheartening conversation

[Soft-hackle]

Hi all,
I am enjoying the responses, here. One thing I've got to say is the young man was discussing creativity in his fly tying. I agree with Jerry nobody is "self taught" in the sense that they never looked at anything to learn. I was thinking the same thing, really. You've got to learn somehow, the proper technique of tying in order to tie in the first place. If you don't, what do you have--flies that fall apart, ill proportioned, and do not look like any food the trout would look at.

However this young man felt he was being more creative by NOT watching others tie. Here's a quote-

"I don't really like looking at the flies others tie because I feel that it stunts my creativity and I don't like stealing (either intentionally or subliminally) others' techniques. I'm a bit of a flytying recluse, and I like it that way.

When it comes to appreciating others' work, I value ingenuity above all else. If I'm left wondering, "How did he DO that?" or "How did he think of using THAT material in THAT way?" then the tier will have gained my respect and admiration. If not, then they won't. I am not very impressed by technical tying per se unless it is precise in its execution of something new and interesting. I hate looking at a millionth perfectly tied Green Highlander (OK, maybe there aren't that many, but if there's one perfectly tied Highlander, then that's enough as far as I'm concerned). I would much rather see an original pattern, with all its flaws, tied by the inventor of that pattern.I will say that I have developed a technique if I have developed a technique, even if someone else happened to have developed it first. Because I don't like seeing what everyone else is doing, many of the things I do are likely not original in the sense that I'm the first person to do them. But they are original in that I didn't learn them from someone else, and I value that. It may just be another wheel I invented, but if I'd never seen a wheel before, then it's no less impressive a feat than if I'd invented the first one. If someone else later makes a similar wheel without knowing about previous wheels, then I hope that their creativity will be valued for what it is. To me, originality is about creating something new to you, not new to the world. If it also happens to be new to the world (which is a rare thing indeed), then that may be special to the world, but it ought not to make any difference to you one way or the other."



I hope this helps clarify, somewhat, what the young man said or was speaking of. To me, however, Art-in no matter what form, is a learning process, and often can not exist without outside influence. Yes the process is individual and internal, however it is built on what has gone before. An artist builds upon previous knowledge even if he chooses to ignore it. He must know about it first in order to ignore it.

Mark

[Roadkill]

Someone who is discussing tying with other tyers and is looking at flies(just once ) to judge their originality is not the creative hermit he purports to be.

As for me after 50+ years of tying I am a kid in a candy factory at a tyers expo still learning from both sides of the table.

[Hans Weilenmann]

Mark,

While I do not find much in this young tier's arguments I can relate to, can I ask you why you chose the words "very disheartening" to describe your conversation?

Cheers,
Hans "flytying is a world of many shades of grey" W

[upstate tj]

" I will admit, however, that there is a certain amount of satisfaction to be had from watching a tier of
greater stature in the community use a technique that you have been using right along simply because you thought it was the best way to do it." tie2fish makes a good point here,this is a good feeling. I also think tying is a solitary activity,but only after getting ideas from internet, books, conversations, etc. Without the sharing of ideas with people of common interest,my time alone at the bench would not be so rewarding.

[letumgo]

On further reflection, I think I can understand this gentleman's opinion. When I first started tying, I was always trying to duplicate the patterns of other tyers, doing my best with the limited skills I had. I found it disheartening to hear things like, "the wing is too long", "so and so would have done it this way", "the way you did this is historically inaccurate", etc. After a while, it was easier to branch off and just start tying my own patterns, in my own way. In that respect I can understand his point of view.

[kanutripr]

Ray, what you said is very true. One of my pet peeves is about tails on flies (particularly dries). This is an area where I have issues that I'm working on. When I look at the naturals they often have much longer tails than we tie so when someone says to me "the tail is too long" to me the important question is "why?". This is where the learning process comes in. the tyer needs to be open to listen to "why" and then interpret that into their own work. Personally I don't want to just hear "Because that's the way it's done" I want to hear "Because the length of that tail might cause the fly to flip on it's face". I think there is a give and take in many situations and living in a vacuum is not necessarily conducive to the learning process. It's imperative to have the skills to properly complete the task at hand and to have the drive to continue to learn and educate yourself. These things are generally properly learned by observing (in some form) so it's very rare that someone is wholly self-taught. Besides it's fun to kibbitz with others and who knows sometimes you can teach an old dog a new trick

For Mark R - There is more than one kind of watching There is "looking" and there is "absorbing"

Creativity is awesome but a foundation of skills and knowledge is also important.

Vicki

[Hans Weilenmann]

Vicki,

One of my pet peeves is about tails on flies (particularly dries). This is an area where I have issues that I'm working on. When I look at the naturals they often have much longer tails than we tie so when someone says to me "the tail is too long" to me the important question is "why?".

You would get along quite nicely with Alice Conba and here tailing

http://www.danica.com/flytier/aconba/aconba.htm

Cheers,
Hans W

[narcodog]

Well shoot. I posted a nice description on my "self taught" but I must have not punched tho correct button. Any way self taught in my definition is that I like so my others I started with Knoll's and from there I had to figure out the techniques to put a fly together. Books will give you the bases but the actual tying is just like putting the correct brush stroke on a piece of canvas. Without someone actually telling you to do a wrap here or there, how to hold a wing to get it stand in the correct position all takes trial and error.

The Internet has given me a resource that has actually sped up and improved my tying as I am able to discuss the different techniques that I am not able to figure out. Why tails need to be a certain length so the fly will ride correctly in the water, tail on naturals are in many cases are very long but to get the fly to balance you need to have the correct proportions.

The other thing is I like to tie in traditional styles, Catskill, various wingless wets, etc. So I guess I am copying what others tie. I am a visual person and not very creative so that is the road I follow.
If this rambling makes sense.

[kanutripr]

Now see Hans, that's what I'm saying! They are beautiful!

Thanks


Vicki

[Soft-hackle]

Hi Hans,
I found it disheartening because I feel that the art and science of fly fishing and fly tying is a botherhood where people share ideas and thoughts. It is disheartening to me that a young tier, who might have a lot of ability, seemed unwilling to learn more.

I've studied creativity and its cultivation. One of the things I discovered was that creativity IS cultivated, and that to me means looking, learning as much as one could in order to begin to see how a particular medium is used. Then the ingenuity and personal way of seeing kicks in and the person branches off, deviates from traditional methods or approaches. As kanutripr nicely pointed out, a basis must be formed, first.

Mark