A very disheartening conversation

[Soft-hackle]

Hi All,
I'm posting this, here, because it concerns tying. I had a very disheartening conversation with a tier in another forum concerning creativity at the vise. We have had some conversation, here, before concerning inspiration, and I was quite surprised when this young man told me he did not watch other tiers and that he did not want to learn techniques from others. He said he wanted to "discover" the techniques for himself, and this made his flies more creative.

Perhaps this is true, to some extent, however, I draw a lot of inspiration from other tiers and watching other tiers tie. I believe that in order to be creative, one has to be inspired and inquisitive. To me watching others kindles my desire and gets my creative juices flowing. It's like any other art form--basics first--then build on that---learn more, then build on that.

Your thoughts and comments on this matter will be of great interest to me.

Mark

[letumgo]

It sounds like he is picking the more difficult road to learn fly tying. I did the same thing for the first couple years tying, but found that my tying improve much quicker when I was able to watch a person tye in person. It is astounding how many subtle techniques you can learn when watching another person tye. It can be a little detail/method, which often makes a world of difference in the appearance of the finished fly. I learned a tremendous amount from watching you, Vern-O and Nick tye the past two winters. Aside from techniques, I am inspired by other peoples creations. There are periods when I can't think of anything I want to tye. Tyer's block, if you will. When I see someones fly, or read something interesting in a post, I get a flood of ideas. Off the the vice I go to try out the idea/pattern/technique. Sometimes the idea will work, often they fail, but I have gained another tidbit of useful experience in the process.

[narcodog]

I also know of folks who are not interested in watching or learning from others but theirs comes from being arrogant. Since I discovered the internet my tying has improved considerably. Not only in form and function but also history and tradition. For most of my tying life what I learned I leaned on my own as there was no one that I could glean information from.

It's to bad that he has such an attitude because he missing some very important information.

[Jerry G]

Hmm, I'm sitting here trying to build some sort of defense for what certainly appears to be an attitude of arrogance. About the only thing that keeps coming back to me is how often I've heard, I am self taught. I guess for most of us that type statement is a bit hard to believe. Certainly one would think that at least a book or two started those claiming to be self taught on their way. I certainly understand Marks feelings and Narcodog mentions a very important part of this past time we enjoy in the history and those that have made this sport what it is. There certainly is a lot to be lost by wanting to discover it all by ones self or actually thinking that you can. Really for what, to be able to say I'm self taught? Well we also need to remember in this medium known as the Internet what we read today could be deleted tomorrow.

Regards, Jerry

[hankaye]

I was once thrown out of a classroom for asking '... just one more question...'

Teacher told me that "if I asked One more question I'd be sent to the Principals Office."

Next words outta my mouth were "just one more question," she just stood there very erect and pointed to the door.
I left the classroom and assumed my seat in my 'normal' seat outside the Principal's office.

I enjoyed school .... the Principal was very happy when I moved on the the next level and another school.
I LOVE to ask questions, Don't know where I'd be without them...

just askin'

hank

[hankaye]

PS.

Mark, for every person that you encounter that insists on sticking their head in the mud how many do you run into that ask questions that make ya think,
and gets you askin questions??? huh? huh? well....

just askin'


he-he-he,
hank

[kanutripr]

A house needs a solid foundation...


Vicki

[willowhead]

Hank, you a fuuny dude.....keep it up. i love it...........
Mark, i hardly know where to begin....... ......and i'll definately hold off on even getting near touching where i heard the word sport...........sport........what a joke. Anyway.....hey, if the dude has an attitude or a philosophy and a viewpoint (call it whatever you like), give it to 'em. Opinions are like a*******, everybody has one........so let 'em have his. It aint no sweat off anyone elses back. Sides.....he'll prolly come around with time.....but maybe not.....and like Fats Waller said, "One Never Knows.............Do One." Hey, he may turn out to be..........................you fill in the blank.
Personally.....i'd lay almost any amount of money, says i may have watched more tyers tye, live, up close, and in person, than any other tyer in the last 15 years.....on this planet. And that was only because i had the time.....made the time, took the time, and had the drive to do that. i'd go virtually anywhere to watch someone tye. My wife and i spent maybe 80% of all Sat. afternoons for the last, well from 1992 til 2008, at the CFFC&M "watching" from the first Sat. after opening day til the last Sat. in Oct., all those years.....and alllllllllllll those CFTG meetings, and alllllll those Sat. at Ramsey's outdoors in Paramus, N.J. in the winter time......and Somerset both in Nov. and Jan. alllll those years, and allll the Danbury shows.....and since 2002 shows alllllll over the states and beyond the last couple years........i bet i've averaged from 50/60 somethin' to upwards of 125 days a year, depending on the year....."watching," since the early 90's. And yes Hank, asking questions, LOTS of questions.....and btw, i've found that tyers do not mind anserwing questions at all.....long as you time it right, and it aint no dumb question. Yeah Yeah yeah, blah blah blah blah blah .....there aint no dumb questions......yeah right. the timming itself can let someone know instantly if you got any intelligence or not.....and when someone is helping/teching/mentoring you.....as a tyer or a person.....the least you can do, is try your best to time the **** RIGHT! Thank you very much. We also took scads of lessons.....but every time you watch, your takin' a lesson.
For me....."i just like to watch" but seriously.....the TREMENDOUS amount you can learn from watching and asking questions is irreplaceable, and invaluable. Case closed. Naturally it goes without sayin' that books, videos and the internet are a MUST nowdays.....less you like livin' in the dark ages. i've only missed the last two IFTS shows since the days when it was still in the Meadowlands and no one had even heard of Somerset yet. Can't imagine not learning AND being inspired by watching.....and MORE importantly, gettin' an insight into, and understanding of, the things that make all the fabulous tyers tick and why they are drivin' to do what they do.....and wass up with that. Don't get me wrong.....i already "knew".....but i also knew i had to put myself into a position to reaffirm it, "On a Daily Basis." It's the same thing puts a musician back on the bandstand night after night after night after night after night........................you dig? HOLLY rollin rollin' rollin'....................keep them doggies............lmao.

[willowhead]

Couple things to include.....which are really one in the same...........i spent the first half of my years as a tyer.....trying to learn everything i possibly could in terms of techniques and all-round tyin'.....of the different things there are to tye. Bodies, different ways to dub, ribbing, shell backs, good heads, tailing, winging, working with floss, foam, natural/synthetic, etc., etc......and then terriestials, parachutes, bass bugs, saltwater, steelie flies, panfish, Catskill style winging, and on and on and on.........and then at a certain point.....you realize, hey.....i'll be dead soon......is it time? So then your decide.....you choose.........."Choices." So i just went off to do my thing.....since you'll never know it all........(damn cool)......and it's totally not about that.....you have to deal with certain things at certain times.......just encourage the kid.....if he is a kid.....if he's not a kid, encourage him anyway. Everybody needs encuragement.
Definition of an aritst is.....1st. one who truely believes he has something to say.....2nd. one who has mastered or got it together to be able to say whatever the hell that is.....and 3rd. one who knows DE DIFF! (the difference)..........
Cause no matter how profound what ever that is, IS.....and no matter how bad (good), you are at sayin' it.............if you don't know DE DIFF..............put your head between you legs..............you know the rest.

[tie2fish]

Hopefully this "do it my way" dude won't decide to take up brain surgery. I will admit, however, that there is a certain amount of satisfaction to be had from watching a tier of
greater stature in the community use a technique that you have been using right along simply because you thought it was the best way to do it. Personally, I enjoy watching others tie simply because I find a certain beauty in things being done well. When the end product is something that's both aesthetically pleasing and functional, so much the better. Besides, it's rare when I don't learn something new by paying attention to the way others do things.