FLYMPH FORUM

Howdy, All...

For the Tenth Anniversary IBF Swap, I've decided to tie Leisenring's Tups Flymph. I figured I'd start up a thread to follow along my thought and decision-making process, partially because I was hoping for some advice, and partially because I want to play with a new tripod I've just bought

I'm a bit hamstrung, as (although I've read and returned a borrowed copy) I don't own a copy of The Art of Tying The Wet-Fly and Fishing The Flymph. In this day of the interwebs, however, that is little bar.

I have found the following directions:

HOOK 13,14.
SILK Primrose yellow.
HACKLE Very small light-blue hen hackle or medium-dark honey dun hen hackle
BODY Halved: rear half of primrose yellow buttonhole twist; thorax or shoulder of yellow and claret seals' fur mixed dubbing spun on primrose yellow silk.
TAIL Two honey dun hackle points.

and found the following two pictures:





The first purports to have come from the hand of Leisenring himself, while the second comes from our own Mark Libertone.

So, the need for decisions begin.

First off, body thread. What, exactly, is primrose? Being a guy with a somewhat limited color vocabulary, I would have guessed it to be pink. That'd be wrong, of course. It's some form of yellow. But what yellow? Although I have Pearsall's primrose, the recipe clearly calls for buttonhole silk, and some further research suggests that Coats and Clark primrose buttonhole silk was preferred by Leisenring. A quick trip to the auction site, and a look at my bank account, suggested that this might not be the best option, however. So some internet research and a trip to JoAnn's Fabric ensued.

I found that Guetermann's machine embroidery thread seems to be what passes for buttonhole twist these days. However, the color question arose again... what color is the closest one to Leisenring's primrose? (And perhaps the equally important question, which one would work best?)

Here are pictures of the two colors I picked up, dry and wet. Both are Guetermann's silk machine embroidery thread.

Guetermann Col 580





Guetermann Col 325






All the pictures were minimally processed -- just cropped and minimally sharpened when they were converted from RAW to JPG. They were shot at an unnecessarily high ISO for tripod work, and the top color is totally blown out, especially in the wet shots, but like I said earlier, I'm working on it.

So that leaves the first question I have to ask of you all: Which color? I kinda prefer the second, less vibrant, color (380), which also seems closer to what seems to be what people mean by primrose. However, the first (580), more vibrant yellow, seems closer to what Leisenring used (and Mark Libertone as well).

Thoughts?

Question number two: Tail or no tail? The recipe clearly calls for one -- but as some internet research, and indeed the evidence of the Leisenring-tied fly above, suggests that tailless is at least an option. I realize it probably doesn't make a huge amount of difference for the fish, but this is for a swap, so I turn to you all: tail or not?

Many thanks. If people are interested, I'll continue this as the process continues.

c

Chris, all very subjective and of my own ideals...... but......
To me, primrose is a pale straw/lemon yellow, or very "washed out" yellow. In silk it is almost a translucent yellow.... if that makes sense?
I was going to suggest Guettermann or Kinkame as a sub for the buttonhole and it looks like you already have that covered. Maybe 325 being the better option?

I will possibly get shot down in flames for this next bit, but the two examples you show- in my eye- the hackles seem a little long in the fibres and I would be trying for around half to two thirds of that length..... but I am no expert and your references were WAY above and beyond my capabilities!
I also prefer Marks thorax to the other, but again, that is all just a personal view.

Be interesting to see those new silks well waxed and see how it effects the colour.
Like Pearsall primrose, when waxed with dark cobblers wax gives a nice olive- not really yellow at all.......

cassady, Howdy;

There was, a chart that Ray and dd(aka Stefan), put together, but it was dropped when
Mark L's website shut-down ... so, ... poof! Now we all know that Ray doesn't throw much out so he
might be able to post it back again ... or send me a PM with your email and I'll email you a copy of
the PDF cuz I saved it, just checked and found it's still there ...so ... ???

I don't venture many opinions about colors, 4 ex's all said I couldn't differentiate between fuchsia and
the color next to it on the same paint chip card .

hank

Chris - I sent you an email with the silk color chart. Excellent choice of pattern.

cassady, Howdy;

Stupid time-out is sooooo friggin short X2!
Here's a link to the chart
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5450

Hope that helps.

Only the tying silk would be "Well waxed" I don't think the body is.

hank

I thought that photographing Pearsall's primrose under the same circumstances might be interesting for comparison's sake:

Dry


Wet

hankaye wrote: Only the tying silk would be "Well waxed" I don't think the body is.

I think this is true as well: While I don't have the original to access, I have found this statement by Mark Libertone on a different forum (not sure if I'm allowed to cite the source or provide a link)

"Leisenring tied this fly with NO tying thread under the abdomen. He simply tied on the button-hole-twist, wrapped it down the shank and back, then tied it off. This makes the silk translucent when wet."

Waxing, in my limited experience, would change the color of the silk (which is not evidenced in the photos of Leisenring's or Libertone's fly), and wouldn't be conducive to transparency. But I'd be willing to be corrected.

Oh, and I received the Pearsall's silk color guide, Ray -- what a great resource. Many thanks!

Interesting read, thanks. I like Marks fly a little more and I also like the lighter color myself but the trout seem to like both those colors and I don't know if one works better then the other, because they are both so effective.

Chris - Carl hosted a Tups swap a while back, which was epic! There was a lot of great feedback shared during the back and forth of the swap.

Here is a link the swap. Well worth reading thru the posts.
http://www.flymphforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... 280#p50177

Feel free to mention The Fly Tying Forum. That is where I first saw Mark's flies, and learned about wingless wet flies.

Chris ~

One of the things you will want to consider is whether you are attempting to replicate the traditional Tups pattern or whether you wish to duplicate/approximate Leisenring's version.

Based on a very good photo of a Tups nymph known to be tied by Leisenring, at least one of his versions includes the following characteristics, not all of which are consistent with what most folks consider to be the "traditional" pattern":
- three wispy tail whisks
- a tag/rib of relatively heavy gold wire
- an abdomen that appears to be too smooth to be made of buttonhole twist
- a relatively light colored thorax with one or two bold red fibers woven into the matrix
- light colored hackle of a length not extending beyond the rear of the abdomen

Hope this is helpful.