FLYMPH FORUM

I am researching and tying a number of old and historic New Zealand wet flies for a project and book (well maybe.. a long term thing - we shall see) and a number of flies from one individual in particular calls for "Sienna" coloured seals fur.

Now I have found the colour on http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Colours



then there is raw sienna:



and burnt sienna




What I want to know if anyone (Mike? Hans?) has any Sienna dye from any source and if so how accurate is the colour? I wonder if perhaps Veniards had such a coloured dye in the past (cannot find a reference to it now and no local compaines either contemporary or historic ) and would assume that this bloke - R K Bragg - would have possibly used such or a similar dye as he was from England prior to coming to NZ in 1939 and prior to that worked for a number of companies including hookmakers Hutchinsons, tackle house Ogden Smiths, gun makers Cogswell and Harris and had as his clients, Skues, General Franco (who'd a thought he was a flyfisherman?) the Mountbattens, Lord Sainsbury and others. He is an important figure in New Zealand fly tying history and I want to get his stuff as accurate as possible....

Johnno,

For some reason I can't see your examples. Take a look at John McClain's line of seal fur and see if anything is close. http://www.feathersmc.com/products/show/Seal%20Dubbing

Hope that helps in some way.

REE

When matching colours, it is more or less essential to use a "standard" colour chart, and not on an electronic screen, as the colours can be wildly inaccurate.

Yeh thats the problem. Try and find a "standard" colour chart with sienna on it... May have to in time make a 'best guess' and have a caveat.....

All good fun though.

Here are some good dyes to try. Click on "Browns, Grays, Black" in the left side column to see yarn dyed these colors. Bill

http://www.earthguild.com/products/dyes ... caatoe.htm

thanks for that pples..

Wow . . .

After being a reader of these boards for years . . . and occasionally an Asker of Questions, I have never ever felt the confidence to chime in with an "opinion" . . .



I am an oil painter and art-teacher by profession (www.tedandersen.com) and a fly-tyer and fisher by love (finding the inspiration for my paintings), and unfortunately (cringing), Mike is wrong in this case . . .
The wikipedia colour charts are totally wrong (nothing like the real pigments)
Raw Sienna is Lighter in tone than Burnt Sienna . . . Raw Sienna is much more like a yellowish-orangish-tan-light-brown, and Burnt Sienna is a darker (in tone) and more umbered or browned version, like you took away most of the yellow and light-orange qualities.
I thus would imagine that a "Sienna" pigment is closer to Raw Sienna.
Utrecht and Wikipedia are pretty layman-basic, but Williamsburg oil paints are much more authentic:
http://www.williamsburgoilpaint.bizland ... rchart.htm
But as you look at this chart, you will see very little difference between the two colours. BUT, if you opened the tubes of paint, you would start to say "Ah HAH"!

Respectfully, your oil painter--Ted

http://www.gamblincolors.com/artists.gr ... index.html

cheers--Ted

This dealer appears to stock Veniard's Sienna. Bill


http://www.flies4fishing.com/Retail%20C ... 20Dyes.htm

I also am an artist and I suppose one could say a colorholic I work in various mediums and have also done fabric dying. As has been indicated by other posters, you will find there are inconsistencies between companies colors and I find this so particularly with burnt sienna.I think your best direction is to go to an art store and look at a good brand of artist color to see how it looks in the tube. It will be very concentrated in the tube. Just like a dye would be in the packet. Once applied to the desired surface or thinned out as a dye, the color concentration may appear reduced, less intense/dark because different materials absorb the dyes differently.

Most art stores will have a color chart of their pigments done with the actual paint not a printer. Barring that, If you are sneaky, take a white sheet of paper with you , open the tube, put a little pigment on the tip of your finger and whip it across the paper. ( shop owners will love you! ) Checking different brands you will see some inconsistencies but mostly on the same wave length.

I looked at the color charts on line and they are really not very accurate. But then as Mike says, the color settings on each one's monitor can be set differently. The secret is to know the original dye used on the fly tying material and then finding it is the challenge.

Siennas are made from an earthy clay. Raw sienna is a yellowish brown and when roasted becomes a reddish brown called Burnt Sienna

Good Luck,
fran

Fly tyer's often have their own unique terminology for colors. I believe that in regards to the original question; Veniard's was most likely the dyes used. If anyone is interested, on page 27 of the book in the link below, is the story of the origin of Veniard's dye colors. Crawshaw was later bought out by Veniard's. Bill

http://books.google.com/books?id=y70CAA ... a#PPA26,M1