FLYMPH FORUM

I may be opening a Pandora's box here, but this started as a response to Gingerdun's concern regarding a rod for Western fishing. He posted: "People warn me that my 4 wt might be a little frail for Montana". I have to respectfully disagree. Please understand that my opinion is based on many years of Western fishing experience, and not whimsy or what "experts" may suggest. For most Western dry-fly and wingless wet-fly fishing, especially during the summer, my favorite rod is a 4 weight. As for length, a 9' rod is ideal for dry-fly on everything from the big rivers like the Missouri and Henry's Fork, to the smaller spring creeks. When fishing spiders or flymphs, a 10' 4 weight is perfect. That being said, my favorite 10 footer is a 3 weight as I find I can fish lighter tippets with it and still handle good fish. The longer lengths of today's 9' and 10' rods give a lot more line control than the shorter rods that were the norm years ago. When I first fished Montana and Idaho I was using the same 7' and 7 1/2' bamboo rods that I used on the Beaverkill and smaller NY trout streams. You won't catch me doing that now!
I should qualify these preferences a bit; I much prefer fishing smaller patterns, I almost never fish weighted or bead head flies and I threw out the strike indicators a long time ago. Please don't think I'm being judgmental, I just get the most satisfaction from fishing dries and un-weighted wets and the lighter rod/line combinations allow me to do that most effectively.

As to fish size, I've landed many, many trout over 21" here in the East as well as in the West using 3 and 4 weight rods. My dear friend and fishing companion Galen Mercer is one of the very best anglers I have ever known. Believe it or not, his rod of choice is an 8' 9" 2 weight! With this little stick I've seen him land 22" trout on 7X in big water in less time than most anglers would take to bring a 12 incher on 5X to net. He and I both put a lot of pressure on the fish and try to land them as quickly as possible. The fine tips of the lighter line weight rods give better cushioning to light tippets and the smaller diameters of 2 - 4 weight lines have less resistance in the water than heavier lines. (Frank Sawyer addressed this in his book "Nymphs and the Trout".) What I see from observing other anglers play fish is that they are afraid to put a real bend in the rod and therefore put a LOT less pressure on the trout than they think. Remember, you are holding the wrong end of a long lever so the amount of pressure you feel is much greater than the pressure you are actually putting on the fish. If you want to prove this to yourself just attach an 8 oz weight to your line and try to dead lift it with your favorite trout rod. You'll put quite a bend in that rod before you get the weight off the ground! Trout Hunter 7X tippet material tests 2.6 lbs; almost 5 times that 8 oz weight you are trying to lift! What breaks tippets is poor knots, sudden loading (shock), or abrasion. It's very hard to break even 7X with a steady pull from a light trout rod. Marinaro proved this many years ago using gut tippets that tested 4 oz........ See chapter 9 in "A Modern Dry Fly Code".

Conventional wisdom suggests that a 5 or 6 weight is the ideal all round Western fly rod and I have to agree with some personal reservations. If one will be using larger dry flies, weighted or bead head nymphs, small to medium size streamers, or fishing big indicators then go with the heavier outfit. I always take a 9' 5 weight as a back up rod in case of high winds, or in the (unlikely) event that I'll be fishing streamers. Despite what many think, most of the time you won't be casting any further than you will at home, unless you are fishing the lakes, which is another story altogether. I lug that 5 on every trip but can't remember the last time I strung it up.

Rods and line weights are very personal choices indeed, and I don't want anyone to think I'm disparaging their choices if they are different than mine. But I do know from many years on the water what works best for me!

Perhaps I got carried away with this. It was meant to be a suggestion to Lance but it looks like it turned into a bit of a rant. Thought I'd post it anyway..... My apologies!

John, your points are well taken and are on the mark for all reasons you state. Here is a small departure from you statement and that is the experience of the fisher person. Lance is by his own omission a rookie so a lighter or shorter rod may be a disadvantage. The ability for a novice to fight the winds of the west can be very daunting. JMO

My personal preference is an 8ft Battenkill with a silk line except when throwing large rubber legs in the Box Canyon.

There is a great deal of distilled wisdom in this post. Thanks for sharing.

I believe Nemes used a 3 or 4 wt rod.

John,
I am of similar opinion when asked by a pre-visiting overseas based fisher "what weight gear should I bring?" or "will my #4 weight be ok in NZ?". If I knew the asker well and had a good comprehension of his/her ability, had a fair idea of the part of NZ they were visiting, flies required to be thrown and expected size of catch, I might be tempted to say "yep, your #4 will be fine"...... but more often I do not.
Sure there are lots of places here you can fish down to #3 weights quite happily, not always ideal, but you can do it just the same as you can anywhere in the World trout live. One of the most popular local guides here uses a 9' #4 weight for the entire season and he lands trout of 10lb+ on an unnervingly regular basis. He knows the trout, the conditions and technique down pat, he has to- it is his bread and butter. But he sets all clients up with 9' #6 weights.
For anyone visiting here I recommend the same, Graphite 9' #6 weight and the same in #8 weight if targeting Lakes and lures.
Many people that visit here do so with a very small time window, a week or two, so you cannot predict good old Mother Nature in regard to wind especially. Most folk will find it easier to push a #6 weight in the wind rather than a #3-4 weight. I know some can do it, but for the average Joe, a #6 suits better.

I cannot comment on Montana/Wyoming/Idaho, but would swing toward the safe side for anyone visiting the area and not used to the local conditions, but to also take their familiar set-up along for when conditions suit its use.

I use a 6 weight when I know I am going to be throwing streamers and a 5 weight for everything else. My buddy uses a 6 weight for Streamers, and a 4 weight for everything else. I know Colorado isn't the same as the states in the title, but there are similarities. Pack the rods you cast best, and have fun. Wish I was an expert on 7 different weighted rods, and could catch a lot more big fish. Then maybe I could give a better answer. Fact is, I like my 9' 6", 5 weights. Both of them, for me, are good all around rods, and for me, that's all that is needed.
Oh yeah, once in a Blue moon I get to see a 10pounder landed on my 5 weight or on my buddies 4 weight. Even in the wind.

When I build fly rods, I check the guide placement by performing bend tests. I rig the rod with a reel and line, then have one of my kids hold the rod while I pulled on the end of the line. The first time I did this, I gained an appreciation how little force is applied to the end of the line, even when the rod has a deep bend in it. My 4 weight fiberglass rod seemed especially soft, yet I have landed a few catfish in the 28" to 29" range with it.

I am enjoying this post very much. Excellent discussion. I need to reread the posts a few times to soak it all in.

Personally, I think you are right on the mark. Rod choice is about the conditions one will be fishing, which includes everything from where to what your casting and from skill level to simply personal preference. I was and am still taken back a bit the comments on how fast the rod I was using in Roscoe was. I have to admit it felt like a noodle to me and took me a while to get used to it. Once I did however, it was very pleasant to fish with. I didn't realize how fast my rods are until seeing what most were fishing with in Roscoe.

Agree on the 4-weight comments for the Henry's Fork (Ranch water), Hebgen Lake and anything in the Park except perhaps the Yellowstone Canyon waters. A 4 can be a tad light IMO for the Madison between the lakes and below Quake as well -- not for casting or for fly size but because a big fish can raise a lot of Hell if it gets downstream from you in those swift waters. My rods of choice so far this year have been an 8'3" 4-weight quadrate bamboo and a couple of 8'6" 5-weight bamboos. I agree on the longer length recommendations. I seldom uncase anything under 8-feet in the four months I'm in the "Montahoming" region.

Eric

Central and Northern Idaho I use a 4 wgt most of the time and it's more than adequate. Here in Montana, on the Madison, I'm using a 9' five weight and nothing smaller than 4X tippet material. All day long I see people come into the shop with broken tippet and shredded leaders from hooking into some of the wiley bows and browns that hang around here. Your experience with hooking and landing large fish has a great deal to do with your rod and tippet choices.