FLYMPH FORUM

I am curious to know what leader formulas most of you are using when fishing soft hackle flies on the swing. I have been experimenting with a 15 lb butt section that tapers to a 7.5 X tippet. Ant input is much appreciated. Thanks. Otto

Hi,
If you are fishing one fly at a time, any leader formula that will turn over with the size fly you are using will work. I fish, mostly, for trout on a regular fly rod. Most of my flies range from, size 8 in the early spring to sizes 18, perhaps. Mostly it is 10, 12, 14. My leader tippets range from 3X-5X unless I'm fishing larger or smaller flies. Depending upon what I'm trying to accomplish also determines leader selection. Sometime, when fishing deep, shorter, single diameter mono is used. Other times, when the water is extremely low I may go to a 15 foot tapered leader with 4X tippet.

If fishing more than one fly, it's a bit different.

Mark

I'll give it my stock answer-It Depends.

My leaders vary with the rod weight, fly, fish size, and fishing conditions.

My tippet may be 12-15 lb if I am swinging a large soft hackle for steelhead, rarely below 8 lb test on a 5 foot leader on a sinking line or tip.

For normal trout on a floating line I usually am using my furled leaders made out of 4 or 2 lb material tapering down to 2-6X tippet depending on fly and fish sizes.

For trout on a sinking line usually about 2' of 0x followed by 3' feet of 2-4X

If you get real serious about understanding leaders and making you own custom leaders I suggest the book Drag-Free Drift by Joseph Kissane.

Now this is right up my alley and fills a full chapter in a book on Fishing North Country Flies due out later this year (co-authored with another forum member).
Now I don't want to give too much away but I am keen to help 'newriverspey' in his quest for information.
Just to put some background to this, using North Country Flies as part of my guiding (in fact it forms the larger part of it) means I get to try just about any combination of flies and leaders that my clients have with them. Ultimately we end going for a couple of options.
The first is to make your own. This is great fun and also a moneysaver. The second is to use ready made tapered leaders. This save time not money but if you select the right one then they are as good as a hand made one using the correct formulas.
So let's start are the beginning - "What length do I use?".
Fishing north country flies (or soft hackles) is all about control. Control as to where you place cast, control as to how you fish them, and control as to how you make the flies behave. This means two things - rod size and leader length.
I'll leave the former one alone and concentrate on the latter but suffice to say that I use long rods (10') in light weights (2 - 4 wt) and this combo handles fish in the large bracket.
Despite what the literature states, these flies are fished up and down. Indeed, modern materials now allow us to fish in a 360 degree circle as we are not inhibited by heavy roads, lines and leaders. This is a good deal what the new book addresses.
But hey, we are friends here so I will share a few secrets.
Now remember the comment about control? Our experience has shown that you need different length leaders in different situations> Longer if you are fishing down and across, shorter if you are fishing upstream. Basically I use two lengths. A 12 foot leader for upstream 'spider' fishing and a 18-20' leader for downstream. These lengths allow me to fish the leader and not the line. In fact I only have about a rod length of line out so I fish short and allow the leader (especially the business end) do the work. This approach allows me to control the flies and tease them through all of the micro currents in the water (alas, another topic and too much information - hehehehe).
Now the second part - "How do I make them?"
I will deal with the ready made leader first. There are two basic components that you must keep in mind with leaders and especially with this type of fishing = butt and tippet diameters. The butt needs to be thick. even on a 3 weight line the thickness needs to be pushing .50mm. Here is a guide for you:
Butt thickness for leaders:
Line weight Diameter (mm’s) Diameter (,000 inch)
3 .45 to .50 .017 to .020
4 .45 to .55 .019 to .021
5 .50 to .55 .020 to .022
6 .55 to .60 .021 to .023
7 .60 to .65 .022 to .024
8 .60 to .65 .023 to .026
So select a leader that has the right thickness in the butt for you line.
Next the tippet. It needs to be thick enough to allow the flies to turn over. Fortunately most soft hackles that I use are light and sparse. Again a guide for you:
Tippet thickness for flies
Tippet thickness mm/inches Fly size range
8x .08mm/.003” 20 to 29
7x .10mm/.004” 20 to 28
6x .13mm/.005” 18 to 26
5x .15mm/.006” 14 to 20
4x .18mm/.007” 6 to 14
3x .20mm/.008” 6 to 12
No you have these two pieces of information you have got it cornered.
For a 12' upstream leader I select a 7'6" ready made leader with a tippet that allows me to add two further sections and reach my tippet size. Mostly I fish a 7x tippet so I would select a leader that has a 5x tippet. This allows me to add two section, 6x and 7x of about 30" which gets me out to about the 12' mark with just the right extra lengths to add two droppers at each knot. It also allows me to make a few changes to the end of the leader without having to go to a new leader everytime.
For a 20' leader I do the same thin but I start with a 12'6" leader. The ones I prefer are Varivas Standard leaders.
Now for the hand made formulas. Gosh there are so many that it is impossible to start. Some you hear about and try are just crap and require a really heavy fly to turnover. But most are good.
The butt and tippet rules still apply here but the test is the taper from one to the other.
Believe me I have over 400 formulas and I have tied most of the, (I am a bit anal about leaders). In the end I have settle upon one and it works fine despite me trying to prove that it doesn't.
Butt = 33%
1st section = 11%
2nd section = 11%
3rd section = 11%
Tippet = 33%
Can't get much simpler than that - 3 sections of 33% with the middle section broken into thirds.
Now the trick is in diameters (never breaking strain). If you are starting with a .50mm butt each section decreases by .10mm and you end up with a .10mm or 7x tippet.
Now to use droppers I confess I play around with it a little. You see I really want a 30" tippet and on these leaders it is longer, so I subtract from the tippet length, divide by 4 and add those lengths to the other 4 sections.
Now the difference here is that I only add a dropper to the knot at the knot which joins the tippet. and because I want a dropper higher up and the line thickness is too large, then I take a piece of the tippet material that is immediately above the tippet and do this:

Okay, I hope that helps you.
See ya....

Howdy All;

Philip, nice to see you posting once again and as detailed as can be.
That is a LOT of information for my leader deficiant mind to handle. However, I shall
take my time and enjoy it in small pieces. It should stick to the walls of my mind better that way.

How about some details on the "Book"?
I reckon that's what has kept you away from here for so lnog, eh ...
hank

The thing that should be very obvious is that everyone does it differently, and as Roadkill has said, it depends upon how one fishes, conditions, etc. It is my belief there IS no right or wrong way to fish these flies, unless one is doing something drastically contrary to insect behavior. Even then, one might catch a fish or two. Variances in leader use and construction MUST vary with application, water conditions, how one is fishing, etc. There is NO pat answer here. I could give a leader formula for a leader I use a lot- a tapered 9 ft. 4X, however It works best under certain conditions and with certain type flies.

One could use a blood knot or a double surgeon's knot to connect leader sections together. I could be fishing a full sinking line in a manner which may not require a long tapered leader at all.

Mark

PS- added--My response here in no way is intended to discourage others from attempting to answer the question. Philip's explanation is excellent, and I thank him for sharing this info. I just want to make it clear, however, there are many ways to construct leaders based upon how the user uses them.

Mark,
You are so obviously right. That's why there are hundreds of formulas to test. Eventually you come up a few that makes it all worthwhile and suits the rivers and conditions that you fish.
The leaders (and a hint of technique) that I outlined work really well on the spate streams in the North of England where I live and guide. The home of the North Country Fly.
Hank,
I've not been away really, I have just been extremely busy doing something else but I have been visiting most days. And, yes I have been developing the book.
I'll wet your appetite (or opposite).
When you go back through all the books written about North Country Flies from the origin of them in the early 1700's right through to now (and I have most of them, it is a passion) there is a lot on patterns, a good deal on history and not too much on technique. Our book has three aims (1) Take the book 'Brook and River Trouting' of Edmonds and Lee right up into this century. Considering that Bob Smith (co-author and forum member) and I belong to the same club that these two authors were members of is an added incentive and honour; (b) revisit some of the history of North Country Flies and their origins. We have uncovered information and manuscripts that compete with some of the common writingss and which will re-write some of the history. To us this is a bonus and we want to share it; and (c) lastly, put down in plain simple explanation how to fish them properly. This is what we teach people on a daily basis and believe me our clients go away with a different understanding an attitude about fishing soft hackled flies. Yep, you can argue that others like Nemes and Hughes have done a similar thing but they really didn't understand the true nature of fishing North Country Flies. We want to set the standard.
So that's it. Simple and straight forward. Not a 300 page book but one that addresses a very small and specific part of the world of fly fishing.
The post above let's you see the direction we have taken. It would have been out by now but we uncovered some information we just could not exclude, so some rewriting is needed.
Don't worry, you'll hear about it.
Now I must do something about that Symposium I mentioned last year for 2012 in Yorkshire.

Philip, Howdy;

I as well as some of the others ( I feel safe in that presumption), will be eager to read the book upon it's completion.

Should you feel "THE NEED' to have a complete beginner 'review' it to see how understandable it is I will gladly volunteer.
As I am one that has a difficult time translating words into action I feel that I should be the Perfect test subject.
I have always learned better by SEEING how as opposed to READING how.

hank

philip,
thanks for the detailed reply. last night i tied up a few leaders and cannot wait to test them. i mainly swing soft hackle flies, down and across for trout and use either 6X or 7X tippet. given the size of the stream that i fish i only use a 10 ft leader on a 10 ft 5 wt rod. let me know when i can get my hands on your book. take care. otto

Philip, please do keep us updated on the book! I can't wait to get a copy.