FLYMPH FORUM

The back country river that big one of mine came from would have an average size of about 5lb fish I'd guess. That particular trip, all the caught fish (all browns although there are a few 'bows in there) were over 5 lbs with that one of mine the biggest. Probably around 20 fish seen in two days. For around 20 miles of two rivers walked. Water is gin clear and I regard myself as a pretty good fish spotter so thats a fairly good indicator of fish numbers. I think a couple may have ben caught blind, but most spotted. One on a dry and the rest nymphs All on 5 and 6 wgt 9 footers.

The first set of pics was from a small water that runs at about 4 cumecs max I'd estimate. I had 7 or 8 that day and all were between 5 and 8 pounds. That was a good day for numbers caught. Again, all on dries, nymphs, softhackles . There are bigger in there... (I blew one of them ) Used a 5 wgt there.

There are not many fish in waters like those and often one has to walk a long way between sighted fish, sometimes kilometres. So there is a particular biomass dynamic going on there.

There are some waters here with high fish numbers, like the Matarua for instance and you could see on an evening rise maybe 15 - 20 fish rising in front of you in the stretch you are fishing and they'd all be in the 2 to 4 pound bracket. Maybe the odd one bigger. My local river, the Motueka has lower numbers than it used to and the average fish size has gone up a bit from maybe 2 lbs 15 odd years ago to around 3 - 3 1/2 pounds now. Not unusual for me to get a couple of 5s or 6s, even 7s for a days fishing along with a mess of 3 lb'ers. Then there is the Tongariro during the winter runs, but the Taupo fishery is an incredible thing, even now.

One may often fish for a day on some back country waters and only see maybe 6 fish and of those maybe get one or two of them. Thats a good day. Of course red letter days occur and its a whole lot different. Its not uncommon to catch the same fish more than once... I'll do it a few times a season.

There was a thread on a local board discussing one large brown that has been caught several times in recent years...

http://www.flyshop.co.nz/cgi-bin/forum/ ... f=1;t=2701

But it does come down to the ability of the angler in playing the fish then releasing it... The common nets down here have scales built in which makes for weighing fish very easy and quick.

Interesting. Maybe twice in 35 odd years fly fishing I have had 30+ fish days, and a few 20+. All those are on waters fairly well populated by fish. I'll have a few 10 + fish days a season but to be honest once I have now caught a few, I tend to play around a bit with different flies or techniques and not worry too much about the numbers game. I gave counting season totals a long time ago now, I just like being out there.

I'd say that the seasonal average fish size around my neck of New Zealand would be in the 3 - 3 1/2 pound bracket. That'd be fairly much a national average too I'd say. Per season I'd get a bunch of fish in the 2 - 4 pound mark. A few 5 - 6 and a smattering of 7 -8 pounders. Once every coupla three seasons bigger. Only ever had two 10s. But I don't go looking for them. Quite a few do though, especially down the south of the South Island. Last year was the Beech tree "mast" (flower and seeding year) and there were mice for africa in the forests. Fish regard mice as you and I would regard oysters and even "small" fish will take them readily. Nothing more fun than dry fly fishing with deer hair mice to enthusiastic fish They can really slam them. And cicadas...

If you get a chance watch the "Once in a blue moon" DVD. Great indication of what it's like. There should be a trailer or two on Utube

Two of the largest brown trout I have caught relative to average fishery size came from a really peaty salmon and sea trout lough. This lough has a healthy enough population of small wild browns average size about 6" - a 10" fish being very rare indeed.

First big brown came to a Collie Dog that i was experimenting with, the fishing had been really poor to normal wet fly tactics so we moved to the first area of the lough that "a few" fresh sea trout will visit after entering the lough - not a very productive area as most head well into the lough immediately. A large brown of about 3 1/2 lbs took the collie dog - a real ugly fat soft bellied fish.

The second incident was really bizaare. Fishing a nice shallow drift between two small islands, I hooked two Salmon parr at the same time. Normal action is to shake the rod sharply and hope that parr come off which I did - the rod bent double to a savage take. A big brown of about 3 lbs, and when i netted her the salmon parr was sticking out her mouth, both brown and parrr were released, amazingly the parr seemed none the worse for wear.

Given the huge numbers of Salmon, Sea Trout parr and tiny brown trout in this lough it must be a quite comfortable existence for any large brown that has turned to a fish diet.

About ten years ago during a competition on my local club water a strange event happened. A 2lb trout on this water is an excellent trout, 3lber 's are rare, a four pounder once in a lifetime if you are lucky. 4 fish limit, min keeper is 11", 10" fish are abundant, 11" fish have to be located with often much effort. So if you were to catch a 1 1/2lber and 3 other smaller fish you would be certain that you would win. That night 3 anglers thought they were certain winners. First guy weighed in his four fish for nearly 5 1/2 lbs. 2nd guy weighed in two fish , one 1 1/2 lbs the second ,the largest river trout from that stretch of river in living memory 6lb's 4oz. He was sure he had won. Then the final angler weighed in a 4lber, 2 by 2lbs and 1 1lber.
What made the big wary trout come out that night will remain a mystery

I often hear it said that big fish are more difficult to catch, and I often wonder about that, though it does depend on how one defines 'difficult' of course.

We are going to catch fewer of them, as by definition they will be at the far end of the size distribution curve. That may make them 'feel' more difficult to catch, as we simply catch less of them. The frequent angler too, according to the laws of probability, is going to catch more of these big fish than the casual angler, so perhaps giving the appearance to the casual angler of being the more skilful.

But the skilful angler will of course be better able to read the river, so providing they can recognise the best lies, with the easiest supply of food, that is where the big fish will be, and the more frequently the angler targets these places the more likely he is to catch the big fish.

But when it comes to taking the fly, in evolutionary terms, I would expect the big fish, if anything, to be rather less picky than most. Like any successful creature (and the big fish is a successful fish in his population) that success will have been based on finding (or possessing) an acceptable balance between risk and reward. Too great an appetite for risk, and the reckless and careless are unlikely to survive. But over cautious, and growth, in all senses of the word, is likely to be stunted.

That is why I would expect the big fish to take a fly, if anything, a little more readily than his smaller brethren. Unless I am missing something blindingly obvious (quite possible! lol and I think one thing may be that the size to which a fish grows is to some extent influenced by genetic factors - must look that up ) that is what I would expect in a wild, naturally occurring population. (Catch and release on a heavily fished water may completely bugger up this dynamic, I don't know.)

But then there is the greater skill required to play and successfully land big fish. The biggest fish I have ever caught in my river was around the two and a half pound mark, I guess. A monster! I hooked it - completely by chance I may add - I wasn't purposefully fishing for anything special at the time - it was in a part of the river that was no more than five feet wide. It took off like a steam train - frightened the life out of me! lol I'd caught bigger fish before, but they had been stocked rainbows, and in a relatively vast stretch of open water. But this slab of wild muscle in the confines of a small river really was something else, for me. I did manage to bring it in, and it was one of the most beautiful creatures I have ever seen. That was a few years ago now and I have had nothing approaching it since.

It was a black swan event for me. When I look at the kind of fish Johnno is regularly catching, and the places he is fishing (thanks for posting videos Mike) well we are just not playing the same game at all.

So it depends on how we define 'difficult' to me. As far as hooking up, especially when from the surface, I find the bigger the fish the easier it is - they give you so much more time. Far harder are the small trout and grayling taking from the surface, which can suck in and spit out a fly in an instant. Not such a trophy in your hand, but if you do manage to connect, at least you know you've got fast reflexes!

Just a few thoughts...
Andrew.

For your average brown trout river in these Islands the average will range from 1/2 to 3/4lb on a good river - a good trout thus ranging from 1lb to 2lb on a good river. I fish 3 distinct sections of my local river. 1st section will find a lot of 10" inch fish, next section 3 miles up a lot of 11 to 12" fish , next section 4 miles up again most fish are in the 6 to 9 " range.

If I was to be set the task of catching the bigger browns on each section and without reverting to lures then it would be a choice of looking for those out of the way well protected lies that are condusive to a regular supply of midge and other small black stuff and hit them on very windy days. These will be one fish spots.

The second option would be to concentrate on two hatches, so i would be limited to small windows of oppurtunity. Caddis at dusk, and BWO spinner falls at dusk and in very particular places that I know are condusive to some larger trouting visiting a few times a season.

Even at that I would be surprised if i got one exceptional fish in thre to four years of trying.

Mike wrote: In my experience it is often more or less impossible to catch large browns by fly-fishing with small imitative flies, ( or indeed any "fair" angling techniques ) without using "special" tactics. Fishing at night is of course one such tactic. Using large lures in a specific way is another.

That would be consistent with what I was thinking when I was talking about an evolutionary explanation: by going for something bigger yet unfamiliar as foodstuff, they are maybe demonstrating a more 'risk taking' behaviour - more bang for their buck? Simple bio-energetics, in terms of energy gained versus energy expounded getting it. Hence not keen on smaller flies. That they are caught on small flies at all is probably chance, that the fly was presented in such a way that the fish had to do very little - and risk very little - to get it.

Most river fly anglers in Europe simply don't catch many "big" fish ( trout) at all, ( and speaking of wild fish here), and in this case I mean fish of three pounds or more. Some may never catch anything weighing more than a pound or so, and might well consider that the "fish of the season". Of course a lot does depend on the water one fishes.

My 'big fish' was not on the stream I fish the most - I have had a few pound fish from the bigger river. The stream I fish the most is a trib of that river, and a pound fish, for me, is indeed a very good fish indeed, and a correspondingly rare event! (I'd say two fish around that size this season - though I spent a good chunk of it in Ireland this year.)

Having said that, earlier in the year, I was walking along this stream and I leaned over a bridge from which you can usually see fish. And they are flippin' big fish too, quite a lot bigger than the 'big fish' I have caught. On this particular day though, I saw one and it was massive! As big as yer leg... but seriously, it was bigger than my other 'big fish' from the other river. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I never would have believed a stream this size would have supported it. Though I suppose if the food is there, there is no reason why it shouldn't - it just looked incongruously big in the context.

But, as you say, these big fish are in a spot that is practically impossible to get at. I have tried on a good few occasions and I have never caught a fish from this spot. Yet I know there are loads there. I tell a lie - I once brought one up - but missed it. I was thinking of this the other day - I might make that my project for next season. I'll post some context shots and description, see if anyone has any ideas how the problem might be approached. So far it has totally defeated me.

Try stalking deer or hares or similar. If you can't get within ten yards of them without spooking them, or causing them to "prick their ears",

Mike

Nah, I keep salukis for that. When you can run as fast and for as long as they can, you don't need to worry too much about stealth...
Andrew.

Mike , I know a few really good large fish lies where they will occasionally feed on small stuff under very specific conditions. Two in particular are absolutely unreachable.

One in particular I have seen hold a fish I would estimate in the 4 to 5lb bracket and I have only seen him/her in action on 4 occasions in two seasons. This feeding location would probably only rate as 8 out of 10 on the difficulty scale except for one major factor - I have only ever seen it occupied in an extreme downstream wind , the occupant smutting away to its heart content - taking a circuitous route of about 4 yards - sip sip sip.
Trying getting something small up would take anything but an expert caster at least a dozen casts. This fish is catchable but [A] you have to be there when the fish is there, You need to get it right first cast with a fly in the 18 to 22 size into a downstream gale and trees blocking your cast to the back and to the side.

I did manage hooking a fish between 3 and 5lbs a few years ago in a damm near impossible location , his only mistake was coming clean out of the water and belaying his location, it took at least 50 casts to get one under the trees with no more than a foot gap to the water - and the trees grabbed at least a dozen flies. Eventually one went under, hit the bank 5 yards inside, a quick tug and the BWO slipped into the current, sip , lift and into weeds - goodbye.

Some seriously big fish are caught each season , they are there, they can be caught on even small fly's but the odds against a casual angler are immense. Big wild brown trout make very few mistakes each season, you have to be in the right place at the right time with the right expertise to catch one using normal methods , off course a few will be caught by sheer fluke, c'estla vie.

That big one of mine, I initialy spooked. I didn't see it till I was nearly on top of it due to the refelctions on the water and it moved off into deeper water. I had a couple of casts but it was not interested. I moved up to where my two off siders were fishing a stretch about 300 m above me and watched them for around 1/2 an hour. I returned and he was back in his original lie. Took a #8 stonefly fished deep (he was around 4 foot down on the side of a run) about 5th cast.

Another fish, round 7 lbs, earlier in the day I rose to a #12 parachute dry. I struck and he was on for maybe 5 seconds before the hook pulled out. I checked and saw that the bend had opened up so I had hooked him. I thought that was that however one of my off siders said from behind a bush up the back that the fish was back in his lie and feeding again. I changed flies - to a soft hackled nymph this time and waited 5 minutes and got him first cast. That does not happen often



I agree that one must dress according to the given bank side environment. Bright shirts etc are great for pics in magazines but for fish catching? Nah. Browns, greys, greens etc. That scarf I have is actually a "Buff" sock - more for sandfly (like mossies but more vicious) and sun protection that anything else and sun gloves for same reason. Our sun is harsh and having a thin ozone layer... I should have a wide brimmed hat on also.

I have no idea if fly line colour makes a difference or not. Many down here will promote and use dull lines and a few still use bright lines perfectly happily. I am in the dull line camp although the line I am using there (RIO Grand) is a brighter green and not what I would normally use. (I got it cheap) I didn't notice any fish spooking because of the line however its probably a confidence thing and I am more confident in using a dull line. ANd a dull line looks so much more in place in a bush environment where a bright line is so... garish. My leader/tippet setup is in the 12 - 15 foot range usually.

That fish was in a fairly inaccessable part of the river possibly not fished to before. Certainly not this season thus far. Early season up there (mid October) means we were probably the second or third party through there since the season began on 01 Oct. By the height of the season (Jan - March is when all the bloody tourists descend on NZ) maybe daily attention. They are pretty spooky by then! Its a long way from anywhere that water, and takes some getting to by boat or a long long walk so takes a fair bit of effort unless you have money for a helicopter. (Which I disagree with btw)

My local river gets fairly well fished by locals and tourists throughout the season but I tend to fish mid week so the crowds are not there. More often than not I'm the only one I see fishing in my part of the river for a given day. Most pple come to NZ for the wilderness experience and thus the local more easily accessable waters can get a lot less attention. Ironic really... But like you Mike, I have got to my my local waters pretty darn intimately and know where to go to find fish that others would pass by and not even know were there. The rivers here in general certainly don't get the attention or angler numbers you are talking of. Which is just as well given the lower fish numbers.

Johnno, each one of those would be a fish of 10 lifetimes on rivers in this neck of the woods. Mind you the challenges remain the same though a great fish on one water may be a sprat on another - your 12 lbers are porbably no wiser than our 2lbers.

The important thing is we try and protect wild stocks where ever they exist so that trout can continue to challenge future generations and generate angling debates that have been raging for eons.