The greatest advances in human knowledge have been made as a result of using "the scientific method". That is defined here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
anything else, based purely on belief or groundless assumptions is just bullshit.
QUOTE FROM ABOVE URL To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning UNQUOTE
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Fly colours
Moderators: William Anderson, letumgo
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Mike Connor
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Mike Connor
Re: Fly colours
Another extremely relevant quote from that URL; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
(In connection with observations on how horses gallop, scroll down the page to find the reference);
QUOTE
people often observe what they expect to observe. Until shown otherwise; their beliefs affect their observations (and, therefore, any subsequent actions which depend on those observations, in a self-fulfilling prophecy). This is one of the reasons (mistake, confusion, inadequate instruments, etc. are others) why scientific methodology directs that hypotheses be tested in controlled conditions which can be reproduced by others. The scientific community's pursuit of experimental control and reproducibility, diminishes the effects of cognitive biases.
UNQUOTE
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(In connection with observations on how horses gallop, scroll down the page to find the reference);
QUOTE
people often observe what they expect to observe. Until shown otherwise; their beliefs affect their observations (and, therefore, any subsequent actions which depend on those observations, in a self-fulfilling prophecy). This is one of the reasons (mistake, confusion, inadequate instruments, etc. are others) why scientific methodology directs that hypotheses be tested in controlled conditions which can be reproduced by others. The scientific community's pursuit of experimental control and reproducibility, diminishes the effects of cognitive biases.
UNQUOTE
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Mike Connor
Re: Fly colours
As a few people asked, yes, I was referring to this;
http://www.amazon.com/New-Scientific-An ... fsrc=fstfx
But he's not the only one. This is pure bullshit from start to finish and there is nothing the least bit "scientific" about any of it. It is just a lot of pseudo-scientific construction based on what he believes. There is no proof or evidence for any of it.
If you catch a single fish as a result of reading this I will be extremely surprised.
I have heard all the protests. They mean absolutely nothing without proof or foundation of some kind, and there is none.
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http://www.amazon.com/New-Scientific-An ... fsrc=fstfx
But he's not the only one. This is pure bullshit from start to finish and there is nothing the least bit "scientific" about any of it. It is just a lot of pseudo-scientific construction based on what he believes. There is no proof or evidence for any of it.
If you catch a single fish as a result of reading this I will be extremely surprised.
I have heard all the protests. They mean absolutely nothing without proof or foundation of some kind, and there is none.
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Re: Fly colours
This is an excellent string, the trouble is it keeps raising more questions in my mind.
For instance, I recently acquired some fluorescent Orange Pearsall silk.
I already have the other two Oranges 6A (also called Gold) and 19 Hot Orange.
Just looking at the three different spools, the Fluorescent seems brighter to my human eyes.
Do you say that the UV element of this silk is not really, in its self, of much value.
I purposely chose orange, as you've said orange is an important colour in our flies.
I can accept your arguments about the Scientific Method, but I just wondered if the
brighter appearance, without using a UV light, may be signigicant.
For instance, I recently acquired some fluorescent Orange Pearsall silk.
I already have the other two Oranges 6A (also called Gold) and 19 Hot Orange.
Just looking at the three different spools, the Fluorescent seems brighter to my human eyes.
Do you say that the UV element of this silk is not really, in its self, of much value.
I purposely chose orange, as you've said orange is an important colour in our flies.
I can accept your arguments about the Scientific Method, but I just wondered if the
brighter appearance, without using a UV light, may be signigicant.
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Mike Connor
Re: Fly colours
That is significant Donald, but for a different reason. In some cases brighter colours are easier to see, and fluorescents are brighter in the presence of UV light. But one has to be careful here, some seem brighter even without UV light because the base dye used is brighter to begin with.DNicolson wrote:This is an excellent string, the trouble is it keeps raising more questions in my mind.
For instance, I recently acquired some fluorescent Orange Pearsall silk.
I already have the other two Oranges 6A (also called Gold) and 19 Hot Orange.
Just looking at the three different spools, the Fluorescent seems brighter to my human eyes.
Do you say that the UV element of this silk is not really, in its self, of much value.
I purposely chose orange, as you've said orange is an important colour in our flies.
I can accept your arguments about the Scientific Method, but I just wondered if the
brighter appearance, without using a UV light, may be signigicant.
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f135/color ... 41391.html
It may also be that some brighter colours are more attractive to fish, but I have no proof of that, it might just as well scare them away!
The orange "translucence colour" of many insects is seen when the insects are viewed against the light. This is usually the colour of the carapace shining through. This is not the same as fluorescence.
You can try this out yourself. If you use jet black hackle on some terrestrial beetles you wont catch much,but if you use orange hackle overdyed black or a furnace or coch-y-bondu colour, your catch rate increases drastically, especially in bright conditions.
If the fish are feeding on certain beetles then they expect to see the orange colour shining through, and will often just ignore jet black beetles. Beetles dressed with natural black hackle ( which is actually normally a very dark blue), don't catch as much as the ones dressed with orange in them. This is just a case of one artificial being a better "copy" than another due to its colour.
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Last edited by Mike Connor on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Fly colours
That sounds very interesting Mike, Would trying an Orange Pen on a black background
be worth a try? You have given me a lot of food for thought.
be worth a try? You have given me a lot of food for thought.
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Mike Connor
Re: Fly colours
It's possible. I have not tried it in that way. A lot depends on the base colour. If you start with a brown or "red game" cape and dye it black then it has an orange translucence as a result of the base colour. This shows very clearly against the light and there is no mistaking it. It also gives more or less the exact same effect as looking at a beetle against the light.DNicolson wrote:That sounds very interesting Mike, Would trying an Orange Pen on a black background
be worth a try? You have given me a lot of food for thought.
To get that effect with a pen, you would need to use a Red/brown hackle and a black pen. I don't think it will work using an orange pen on a black background. You can try it though, its easy enough to do and the results are immediate.
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Mike Connor
Re: Fly colours
It might be interesting to use a pen on a fluorescent orange body as well. I have never tried it but I will.
The appearance of many things changes dramatically when viewed under different lighting and from a different angle, this is the same for eyes as it is for optical devices like cameras, microscopes, etc. It is doubtless also the same for fish because the physics involved are the same.Here is an example;
http://www.flymphforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... =10#p26401
The same applies to beetles and various other insects. They look different at various angles of view and the light at the time. As fish see many things from below they often see things with the light behind them. This of course applies especially to surface or close to the surface insects and artificial flies, and is especially so in bright conditions. The more light there is the greater the translucency.
These beetles look bright orange when viewed against the light and black or dark brown with a metallic blue "sheen" when seen in reflected light;
This is a mantis backlit;
http://www.viewfinderphotography.ca/ins ... 4#hb72c8a4
In reflected light;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _india.jpg
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The appearance of many things changes dramatically when viewed under different lighting and from a different angle, this is the same for eyes as it is for optical devices like cameras, microscopes, etc. It is doubtless also the same for fish because the physics involved are the same.Here is an example;
http://www.flymphforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... =10#p26401
The same applies to beetles and various other insects. They look different at various angles of view and the light at the time. As fish see many things from below they often see things with the light behind them. This of course applies especially to surface or close to the surface insects and artificial flies, and is especially so in bright conditions. The more light there is the greater the translucency.
These beetles look bright orange when viewed against the light and black or dark brown with a metallic blue "sheen" when seen in reflected light;
This is a mantis backlit;
http://www.viewfinderphotography.ca/ins ... 4#hb72c8a4
In reflected light;
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _india.jpg
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Mike Connor
Re: Fly colours
This is a backlit mosquito, it just looks black in reflected light;
http://www.flickr.com/photos/faycel/6734462153/
This also applies to chironomids, which is why a red or orange chironomid pupa will sometimes take fish after fish in calm bright conditions and a black one is ignored.Although they all look black in the water and even if you catch one and look at it. If you hold it up to the light it is a glowing orange. I think this is what the fish see, and that's why they take an orange one and not a black one. It's only correct observation and logic.
The only "trick" here is to look at insects under the same conditions the fish see them and not assume anything. The fact that something looks black to you does not mean it looks black to a fish looking at it from another angle. If you are looking at it from the same angle and in the same light as the fish, I am confident you will see pretty much what the fish sees. This is also obvious if you use patterns based on this knowledge, they catch more fish because they are better imitations of the naturals AS THEY APPEAR under specific conditions.
This is the same insect seen in reflected light and backlit;
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/faycel/6734462153/
This also applies to chironomids, which is why a red or orange chironomid pupa will sometimes take fish after fish in calm bright conditions and a black one is ignored.Although they all look black in the water and even if you catch one and look at it. If you hold it up to the light it is a glowing orange. I think this is what the fish see, and that's why they take an orange one and not a black one. It's only correct observation and logic.
The only "trick" here is to look at insects under the same conditions the fish see them and not assume anything. The fact that something looks black to you does not mean it looks black to a fish looking at it from another angle. If you are looking at it from the same angle and in the same light as the fish, I am confident you will see pretty much what the fish sees. This is also obvious if you use patterns based on this knowledge, they catch more fish because they are better imitations of the naturals AS THEY APPEAR under specific conditions.
This is the same insect seen in reflected light and backlit;
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Mike Connor
Re: Fly colours
One vitally important point here is that you don't need to know exactly what a fish sees, or how it perceives what it sees. If you copy the appearance accurately as you see it UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS that the fish sees it, then it will work. This is demonstrated time and time again with many patterns. If the fish saw something entirely different it wouldn't take them at all.
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