FLYMPH FORUM

This is another tyer who was mentioned during our recent Zoom video conference. I looked him up on YouTube and liked this soft hackle pattern. He shows how to work with several different materials to design a visible emerer version of the march brown. To me, this also looks like a great pattern for Tenkara fishing.

During our Zoom meeting, we were discussing woodduck feathers and Nick Mango was mentioned and his video showing several methods of tying on Catskill dry flies. I wanted to share this here, since the video is also done by Nick Mango. Although our forum is focused on wet flies, many of us are also fans of Catskill style flies.



I liked his tip at 17 min 21 seconds into the video (Don't breath if you got a big box of woodduck in front of you!). funny

Sorry had to leave the meeting early last night as I have just had my hip replaced a while back and the pain was getting to me. Also sorry about missing the discussion on Catskill style flies. Most of what is shown in today's social media are not quite what I would call true Catskill style but are modern influences created by genetic reared birds that have a high barb count and significantly overwinged. The Catskill style is as sparse as you can get it. Also the space behind the eye is not there for the use of a turle knot as has been erroneously stated over the years. Harry Darbee in his bookA Catskill Fly Tier on page 42 clearly states the reason for the space in his definition of a Catskill style fly."It's characteristics: a good size hook,typically size 12 Model Perfect,a notably lean sparse body,usually of spun fur or stripped quill of peacock Herl, a divided wing of lemon colored wood duck flank and a few sparse turns of an incredibly stiff,clean,glassy cocks Hackle. The wings and Hackle are set back from the eye of the hook,leaving an unusually long,clean, neck at the expense of a slightly shortened body. This puts the sustaining Hackle so close to the point of balance that the fly rides over broken,turbulent water like a coast guard life boat. "AND THERE YOU HAVE IT. It's there for balance but was also a place to put a turle knot which made it out of balance.
Below are photos of a Cross Special tied by him and depicting to me true catskill style. Also I have seen flies tied by Herman Christian which had the clean neck. I believe he started the practice myself but as in most things thus is just an opinion.
The second is my interpretation of the Cross Specia as tied by myself!

Oh I like him. Thanks for posting

Wonderful post Tom, and gorgeous fly. After our last discussion, I am learning to see the features you describe above. It looks like the tail is slightly elevated on the Cross version, which we saw in some of the examples shown in John’s presentation a few weeks ago. As an engineer I am fascinated by the aerodynamics of these flies. Very well designed for many functions.

Tom,

I haven't been able to stop thinking about the aerodynamics of the Catskill dry fly all morning. During lunch today I had to try to draw a force diagram to help explain why these flies land so perfectly with an elevated tail. I think it is a combination of the center of mass of the hook bend wanting to spin the hook point downwards, against the air drag on the tips of the tail and head of the fly (axis of rotation). The tips of the wing also help spin the fly into the proper orientation, but it seems like the firm connection of the turle knot changes the pivot point of to help stabilize the fly during the decent.

Anyway. Just my attempt to visualize the forces acting on the fly, as it falls onto the surface of the water. Fun thought exercise. Feel free to quibble.
Of course, once the fly is sitting on the surface of the water the force balance changes. The fly essentially balances on the tips of the tips of the hackle collar. Again, I think the turle knot plays an important role in how the fly behaves.

Mornin' Howdy Ray;

Gonna throw some wrenches at the gear works. chuckle.

I do like the diagram you did but the fly is static in a "upright" position.
What position is the fly in before it hits the water? is it upside down and
backwards? Is it twisting/spinning? What might the result be if using a
Loop knot or if tied on one of those hooks without an eye and the leader
is apart of the the whole shebang?
That is your mission, ... Mr. Tucker, should you accept and are caught or captured,
well, you know the rest. Remember, you brought this to the fore.
I on the other hand, am just stirring the pot.

hank

Hank,

Here is today's thought experiment (the "Tetter-Totter Analogy"). Trying to visualize the forces of the fly sitting in the surface film. Based on earlier description of how the fly rides in the water, I'm picturing the front hackle collar acting as the fulcrum in a tetter-totter (with the fly trying to balance on the hackle). At the rear end, gravity pulling downwards on hook. At the front, line tension (acting thru the turle knot) pulling down on the front.
As we know, these are gross over simplifications.

Lunchtime is over, so I'm out of time. I will add more comments this evening when I have more time.

mornin' Howdy Ray;

Being a dry type, I'd a thunk that the fly would tend to sit on the hackle and the tail
with the resulting tilt being what puts the pointy part of the hook where it can find
the trout's mouth, you know, in the water. Now, if you roll a floor jack under the
metallic part and jack it up, leaving the waterline where it is and roll it forward due
to whichever knot you use the fulcrum point would end up back to about where it
would be above the barb, don't ya think?
Of course it would depend on how much/little floatant is used/worn off ...

hank
can a former mechanic get the best of the engineer??? chucklin'

Another way of saying as Darbee did. The wing is set back at the expense of a shortened body leaving a clean neck at the eye of the hook so that the fly floats better. Turle knot,clinch not,or whatever you use has nothing to do with how the fly floats. The stiffness of the tippet material would,especially if it was gut which was weak and sank. Flurocarbon which is strong would as it also sinks. . Sinking caused drag.

Tom