FLYMPH FORUM

Hello all i have been using this old American pattern in the UK often with great results the last few years.I mainly fish it when upstream nymphing often with bead head versions.I have been using cock saddle for the dry & subsurface pattern too.Should i be using hen hackle for the subsurface patterns.It sure catches lots of trout with the cock saddle .Any variations on the pattern anyone uses would be interesting too.Cheers All

Rab, your a braver man than I.
I have never had the courage to fish fore & aft hackled patterns- either above or below the film.

If you could, photos of the ties you have been using would be great to see. I guess it depends on the hackle quality as to just how cock saddle is going to behave sub surface, that and your choice can be governed by how you want the hackle to perform. A soft hen or henny-cock hackle will collapse around the body of the fly more so than a stiff high quality cock hackle will, but the bead head will force either below the surface.

One variation you might try is to tie it "Royal" with a floss mid section. Does not have to be red floss, could be something like UV material or florescent? Not saying it will be any better, just a variation you might like to try.

A still water pattern is the Double Renegade. I used it as a large Stone nymph as well by nymphing the rivers with it. I have not used one in many years.

Hook: 4-12, 3 or 4x
Tag: Gold tinsel
Rear Hackle: Brown
Abdomen: Peacock to midpoint of hook
Mid Hackle: White or Cream
Thorax: Peacock
Fore Hackle: Brown

Rabmax, I stopped using the Renegade many years ago. I tyed it almost exclusively in a size 14. Once the size 14 feathers were gone from my 1/2 cape (Whiting) I never bought another White Cape. The Renegade was the only pattern I ever used the White hackle on. I did not see the need to pay $40.00 for a hackle that I only used for one pattern. I substituted Grizzly Hackle for the White (Arizona Lady), but eventually the pattern stopped making its way back in to my fly box. Neither did the Double Renegade even though I still have hackle to tie the larger variation.

If you are having success using rooster hackle, I see no need to stop except, that hen hackle is less expensive. If you know prior that you will be fishing sub surface, trying some Renegades with hen hackle may be a better option.

Arizona Lady (Dry) Found this Picture on the internet.

Here is one.

One river i fish the trout are always stuffed full of snails.When looking for a snail pattern a couple of years ago i saw the Renegade tied with a plump body was suggested.I have since found that plump body or thin body doesn't really matter to the trout.I then found the pattern is a killer on every river i fish too even without snails.I have fished it as a dry & it catches fish but fished wet it often becomes a real killing machine where i fish.I used to use other high viz tags Fl orange,Chartreuse,Fl Pink ect. I recently started tying it like the original with the gold tinsel tag.The gold tinsel seems to out perform all the rest.Just started to try tying it with different coloured hackles too.When sedges are about the original pattern works well.Olives light blue dun hackle,small black stuff,2 black hackles or black hackle rear white hackle front seems very special often.The next thing i wan't to experiment with is using flies tied with soft cock/henny cock vs very soft hen hackles.This guy in the link thinks it should be tied with cock hackle.
( I believe the stiff dry fly hackles create a sonic signature in the water. This sonic signature is a strike trigger when detected by the sensitive lateral line of trout and other game fish)

http://www.flyfishohio.com/Renegade.htm
It goes against most that i have read & most people would say i should be using soft hackle.But i cant get my head round how many trout i catch using dry fly hackle subsurface .Might be because i have been using softer cock hackle from saddles.I normally fish these nymphs on a french leader upsteam in faster water.I don't really do the down & across wet fly style.Mostly as i am not very good at it. Anyway whats the pros & cons between fishing stiffer hackle or soft hackle.On the Double Renegade i hooked a Salmon last year with one fished subsurface last year.Cheers All

Interesting thoughts on cock hackle being used subsurface.

. . . been using this old American pattern in the UK . . .

There's something one doesn't read everyday . . . or ever.

Thanks for posting your results. You may have emboldened me to find more uses (beyond stripped quills) for this bedraggled rooster skin.



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Rabmax wrote:Should i be using hen hackle for the subsurface patterns.It sure catches lots of trout with the cock saddle

Why? I use the same Renegade for both wet and dry fishing, often in the same drift -- cast it dry up and across, when it get to be a quarter down, give it tug to pull it under, and let it swing to straight below me.

It works just as well with a piece of shot in front of it, presented upstream, and works surprising well stripped like a streamer. It's possibly the most versatile fly in my box, but I only carry the one version of it.

More later ... I'm about to go fishing.

My top fly/lure for coloured up water is the green weenie,fl Pink & white weenie.One river i fish has loads of white cased caddis & the white weenie is deadly.No one has ever heard about a weenie never mind fish with one over here.The Renegade seems good for slightly off coloured water too.It might be the white hackle makes it visible to the fish perhaps.Cheers All

It's far too windy over here today to go fishing so have been playing around.

(Hot-Spot Renegade/Czech Nymph)
As you can see i have a fondness for red tying thread .I am sure it will work though.Cheers All

Nice work on the nymph.
Can we have a bit more detail on the pattern please?
Looks like Pheasant tail as a wing case over the entire back? Did you wrap the front hackle and tie it down with the wing case, or add it as a throat hackle only?